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getting in the straps
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Joe, I think you have it right -

Quote:
will try FFF , harness and then back foot azap


There will always some differing opinions and I think that what you say is probably is the best way to learn this progression. As skills improve and you get a few years under your belt, you may change the way you do things.

When I started on long and then short boards (1984), I put my BFF and it seemed to work fine, but as I progressed, I eventually changed to FFF. BFF does offer a higher sense of security (not getting tossed), but it makes planing up quickly more challenging.

Since I sail where you slog/plane/slog/plane etc. I stay hooked in about 90% of the time and get pulled up on plane while in the harness and both feet in the center of the board, then I go FFF and the the back foot. Frequently, I unhook briefly and pump to help get on plane, especially with my larger sails where pumping is more effective.

If I am coming off plane, the back foot comes out and goes forward of the back strap on the center line and I add weight to the boom, trying to keep the board flat and on plane as long as possible, then head off a little (still hooked in).

Your enjoyment level will go up immensely when you have both the foot straps and harness mastered.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa wrote:
just wish to apologize that this thread went back to the old FFF or BFF question

thought i was asking a variant of the question - can i go FFF and ride safely as such until ready to go in back ...

will try FFF , harness and then back foot azap

thanx for your patience !!
good winds
http://joewindsurfer.com


Yes, especially if the water is flat. I wouldn’t recommend sailing with the back foot out in choppy conditions very long as it increases you chances of getting tossed.

Coachg
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ramps



Joined: 07 May 2000
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The words that helped me get into the straps reliably was when I was told to take all weight off the foot in question. For getting your front foot in, all your weight must be supported by the harness and the back foot, and for getting your back foot in you must be supported by the harness and the front foot. You should be able to lift the desired strap-bound foot and wave it around with no change to the board's attitude.
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kmf



Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harness...

Commit to it....

Front strap.....

feather the tail of the board with the back foot near the rear strap...

Back strap.

Works every time for me.

KMF Shocked Very Happy
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramps wrote:
The words that helped me get into the straps reliably was when I was told to take all weight off the foot in question. For getting your front foot in, all your weight must be supported by the harness and the back foot, and for getting your back foot in you must be supported by the harness and the front foot. You should be able to lift the desired strap-bound foot and wave it around with no change to the board's attitude.


Exxxxxactly! Thus what sense does it make to go FFF, as standing on that foot in its strap steers novices exactly where they don't want to go: upwind? Many times a day as I get into my straps, I consciously ask myself, "What on earth advantage would going FFF give me?" I haven't found an answer for that question from either an engineering, physics, or WSing point of view, so I strongly suspect it's nothing more than lore, handed down from whomever nailed the first gym sock to his deck (aft, of course) after getting launched one time too many. With physics, safety, many experts, and some pros all favoring BFF in gusty winds and rough terrain, I just don't understand the insistence in this forum that BFF is not at least a viable alternative if not even the preferred method. Literally every argument I've ever seen here explicitly demonstrates the misconception that BFF implies weighting the tail before planing, when in fact, as ramps said, that is the opposite of the truth.

You see, Joe, your question, "can i go FFF and ride safely as such until ready to go in back" begs another highly related question, "Why would you want to?" The answer to your question depends on your definition of the word, "safely". Gambling is sort of pointless if there's no upside to winning but a downside to losing. I have never heard an upside to FFF ... merely "that's just how ya do it", "that's how [insert famous name here] does it", "it's habit", or "that's how I was taught" ... but I have heard and seen its downsides, and they all involve pain, splints, casts, surgery, crutches, lost months or seasons, and/or permanent disability. None of those particularly appeals to me. I don't know what the odds of those are, but until I hear an advantage to FFF, I don't see a reason to gamble on it. I wouldn't fire a revolver with one bullet in it at my front foot even if the gun had 99 empty chambers in it unless I had something very significant to gain if the hammer fell on an empty cylinder. I don't see any gain in FFF.
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Swellride



Joined: 27 Jun 1999
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Back foot first: Safe transition with smooth shifting of wei Reply with quote

Getting in the straps: Safe transition with smooth shifting of weight.

Begin with the front foot placed in front of the front straps and the back foot between the straps. Make your move to the straps with the back foot first. During this time you should translate 90-100% of your weight onto the front foot while keeping your pelvis forward & front knee flexed. The feeling is; a slight lunge onto the front foot. Reach back with your back foot and “hook” in the strap. For the near future you are: barely weighted on the back foot but safely under the back strap (eliminating getting launched over the bars). Although the back foot is hooked under the strap; do not transfer weight to that back foot until it's called for.This process increases the distances between your feet and increases your stability base
with a posture of a dynamic lunge.

There is an advantage in board trimming when the back foot is safely hooked in its' strap. Most of your weight is on the front foot forward of its strap close to the boards midline w/front knee flexed. This keeps your vertical body weight forward and prevents the drastic weight shift to the tail (causing the board to roundup into the wind.

Gradually hook in to your harness. Again, the back foot is hooked under its back strap making getting launch impossible. While receiving the sails energy you now counter balance that forward pull on your harness with proportional weight translation onto that formerly unweighted back foot. This controlled weight shift to the back foot does not induce rounding up. The back foot weight on the board’s tail is counter balanced by down force on the mast base from hooking in the harness. Your stability platform is even wider; from the back foot strap to a down force on the mast base (through your harness). This weight distribution allows for safely moving the unweighted front foot (from in front of the front strap) into its front strap.

Strap tightness: If you are sailing reaches and not turning to toe side turns it is wise to either set straps tight over the metatarsal heads (ball of the foot & no deeper). Or Open them very wide for extraction from any angle. Wave sailors learn to open their straps to a very loose fit for “easy out” but functionally tighten the strap to foot/ankle by twisting their foot in the strap such that the foot is down the midline of the board. This works well with side shore & on shore conditions. In the sailing broad reaches/lake sailing with weight closer to the heal side rail. I’d go with the tight straps with the toes barely/fully exposed from underneath. Test on shore for easy extraction, especially if getting launched forward.

After you are experience you can get away with riding front foot only in the strap (swell riding) or inserting the back foot last. This is much more challenging as your stance is narrow. The back foot in last approach limits you to a narrow weight & stability platform with little potential range of adjustment in sliding your pelvis bow to stern (for board trimming or sail to harness loading).

I’ve heard both techniques presented to folks that are having challenges with this foot strap dance. After coaching gymnasts (children to Olympians), I cringe at the advice I hear at the beach. A gymnast or ballet athlete will hook the back foot (unloaded) first because it is safest and provides great range of smooth pelvis translation bow to stern. Given a choice I encourage postures of greatest range of motion and controlled weight shift with the least energy and risk.


Last edited by Swellride on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe there are too many variables to definitively say what is best. I think Iso is a Gorge sailor and I can believe that anyone on a small board with a single back strap on the center line, sailing in plenty of wind may go for the back strap first.

On the other hand and as extreme example, there is no way a formula sailor could easily manage to get into the back strap first. The outboard location (same for wide slalom boards) is a tough target and long reach when just popping up on plane and since the back strap is so far outboard, if you do hit it, it will also sink the windward rail.

Anyway, with good speed on a wide board with outboard straps, the board will not head up the least bit if only in the front strap. Also, I previously suggested that if the board has inboard and outboard strap inserts, a novice should be using the inboard strap locations so it will be easier to keep the board flat and help avoid heading up.

Try both methods and find which one works best for you with your level of development and equipment.
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mmyers



Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of this thread yesterday out in a lighter wind/gusty area. The ability and difficulty to get into the front or back strap first, varied by what board I was using (using the same rig). One was easier front, the other back. The common thing that worked on both boards all of the time was getting my toes at the back strap during waterstart. As I came up out of the water, back foot went into the strap, front foot was right around the mast area. I would hook in, build some speed, then drop weight onto the harness and get the front foot in. There were times I could not get the front in, and felt some gust' that pulled my back foot hard on the strap. I'm sure that if I wasn't in the back strap, I would have launched ( I have plenty of experience in launching lol)
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3371

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no mike, there are plenty of people that put both their feet up on the board to try a water start. this phenom is mainly seen in the gorge. seen people nearly exhaust themselves trying this on "light wind" days. if it wasn't for the opposing current and a random puff some sit there for 20 minutes or more. what a waste of time. esp. when they come in all mopey about how lousy the conditions are. meanwhile, those that know to keep a leg down as a keel, pop right up all around them. again to do a double foot water start in the surf is a disaster waiting to happen. esp in side on conditions.

what i am trying to do is suggest a skill set that allows people to deal with a life time of windsurfing that will work in in the largest variety of venues.

if one hooks before getting in the straps early planing suffers, and when one has had a life habit of doing so then progresses to the the surf they get hammered. seen it often. if one gets in the back strap first, one often complains about needing larger gear and they hate puffy conditions. and going out thru the impact zone thusly leads to more hammerage. having a life time set of skills that may work for SF Bay, the gorge or gales won't help most people in more humble conditions.

i'm 210 lbs, plane really early, am in the waves lots, and have to sail in pretty light conditions compared to most that offer higher wind perspectives on these forums. i've seen gorge and maui transplants come to these parts, and lots don't adapt. they tend to get distracted with other things. those that look around and see what's going on in lighter wind conditions and adapt tend to share the truly epic days that we sometimes get. the last one was Aug 25th. irene delivered some spectacular stuff, but only 5-6 sailors were prepared for it. all too many watched and/or were denied by the conditions.

sadly, the conditions were a bit scary to look at, but were actually silly easy to navigate with the right gear and skills. i used a 105 liter onshore wave board and a 5.8 then a 4.7. lots tried with way too small of gear, and/or let themselves get intimidated by the size of the surf. the stoke factor would have been way higher had more tried.

FFF hanging on the boom as a crutch, then hook, then BF. allows for pumps if necessary. sure, when it's blowing 40 plus, why not water start with both feet in the straps? if you've got that skill, good for you.

markek, are you sailing in a very windy place? what's the average sail size you see? BFF is the least likely way to plane off in 15-20 mph east coast conditions. maui 15-20, what sail size do you use? in florida, we use 6.0's and higher. a score of people over the years have tried BFF and most have quit the sport. some have switched and remain sailing. what about those facts?

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surfersteve



Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a physical therapist and someone who struggled with the straps, especially the back one for a year and a half I have one piece of advice: GET IN THE STRAPS AND SAIL THERE! Much of your board control comes from the back foot so matter what your riding style just because your foot is over the fin (that's why it hangs down into the water). Also, once you crash and the board twists or spins out with just the front foot in there, it will make a lot more sense. You can't control the board properly with just the front foot so the board pivots around your front foot as the fin does something else. Not good for twisting or breaking an ankle.
If you are having trouble keeping the board floating when trying to get in the strap(s) it may just be you are on too small a board. Even with good technique it is a lot harder to get in the straps if the board comes off plane easily from not staying afloat.
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