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Toe in asymmetrical fins, becoming the new awesome
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Toe in asymmetrical fins, becoming the new awesome Reply with quote

http://www.boardseekermag.com/features/is-it-time-to-go-asymmetric/?utm_campaign=newsletter_20130607&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter_boardseeker


Some of my fellow finacholics have been doing this since 2007..

oh yea me too. Only slightly ahead of our time

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most every twin fin board since 1969 has some amount of toe in. Turns more important than straight line speed.
Every single quad or twinzer made by a pro shaper has toe in. Since 1980.
Those old asym wave boards of the '80's have toe in on the side bites.
Only some selected Pipeline twin fins had straight set fins. While you do turn there, it's important to drop in early and quick.
Why should your quads have straight set fins? You're not slalom sailing or speed trials sailing.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Most every twin fin board since 1969 has some amount of toe in. Turns more important than straight line speed.
Every single quad or twinzer made by a pro shaper has toe in. Since 1980.
Those old asym wave boards of the '80's have toe in on the side bites.
Only some selected Pipeline twin fins had straight set fins. While you do turn there, it's important to drop in early and quick.
Why should your quads have straight set fins? You're not slalom sailing or speed trials sailing.


With very much restraint:

NO twin that I have measured has any toe, those include , Mistral RRD and Fanatic. PERIOD.

I have measured Quatro, Goya, Fanatic, Tabou , quad//Twinsters//TwinZers
and found no toe.

I have found toe on F2 QUAD rears, Fanatic the 2013s have 1.09 toe on the sidebites, the Tabou Pocket Waves, tri fin have 1 degree+ or - a little.

NONE::: please read that NONE ::::have asymmetrical fins, front, back, side tri, quad or bonzer .

your post has no basis of any factual information, except you may have gotten your user name correct, ..........ummm"may"

and I don't follow what a brilliant surf board shaper you used to be...

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I list any of the windsurfing boards as my examples?
I was riding twin fin surfboards since 1969, a team G&S rider at the end of the year.
Made my first quad in 1968. Riding twinzers since 1979.
Robin Prodanovich shaped me a 7'7" x 23" twin fin wave board for DTL wave sailing..... in 1984. He had never head of such a thing, for a windsurfer. 1/4" toe in on a 8" FU box.
All the new (like 2006 on) multi fin wave windsurf boards are just gimmicks. They want the board to track straight for beginner wave riders, and sail decently in bump and jump conditions, something most single fins did better.
Every surfsailior around here who's tried the Kinetic twin fin will testify that toe in makes a huge difference in turning on the face of the wave, and most have tried the MistralSLE twins.
I see multi fins as a gimmick. None of the owners can justify their sailing by the potential turning prowess of the design. OK, a few pros can.
In surfing, multi fins are here to stay, for hi performance bottom turn off the lips, slides, and slashing.
For windsurfing, a COMPROMISE must be met with straight line performance getting out, ease of sailing for duffers, bump and jump, not too slidy, and ease of manufacture.
That's what makes ME the expert, and you the consumer.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excuse me , but is this Swaylocks or some other Surf Board Forum .?

NO it Has to do with WINDsurf boards, read that again WINDsurf boards.

You are out of reality with the difference between surf board fin layout and those on winds surf boards.


I suggest that the big difference between windsurf and surf boards is the amount of sideways force that is exerted on the board and fins to counteract the pressure from the sail, particularly when sailing upwind. Having the rear fins closer together helps the board track straighter further apart makes the board more twitchy or skatey. Also with the fins further apart it is more likely that the outside fin in a turn will break clear or be in very turbulent water meaning that you will loose drive.

Is the rock you climbed out from under nearby.. if so so back under

You consider yourself an expect at what ?

Please QUOTE which WINDsurf boards have toe///asymmetrical FINS...IF NOT NOT SHUT UP, AS YOU MAKING YOURself look to be ignorant and without social skills ,

and please go back to the dates tat you quote , oh pleaes do ....

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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you must be right, since you are from everywhere.
Do you even wavesail?
I notice all your posts are about equipement, one about spots or actual sailing.
Kinetic's twin fin, made from '96 thru '99, had toe in but symetrical fins. JeanBoldois designs, before JimmyLewis started consulting on the shapes.
They imported about 40 of them to the US, I shipped half to the East coast to various shops, I sold 12 of them to my friends who frequent PaloMarin, Limantour, and Dillon beach wave riding spots.
Is that what you wanted to know?
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JamesHardy



Joined: 29 Mar 2002
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, lighten up you big old dork! In the beginning I thought of you as a novelty, this dude who takes old mediocre boards spends more money and time then he paid for the boards to convert them to something there are not or in the least something thy were not meant to be. But seriously stop acting like your anything other then a hobbyist and that your opinion is anything other then an "opinion".

Zirtaeb you can be a d-bag too this whole "one size fits all" opinions you guys throw out is B.S.. "Multi fin boards are a gimmick" WTF, for DTL there not for bump and jump onshore wave I don't get it. But I'm just a surfer who windsurfs so I'm a little mono- focused.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Well, you must be right, since you are from everywhere.
Do you even wavesail?
I notice all your posts are about equipement, one about spots or actual sailing.
Kinetic's twin fin, made from '96 thru '99, had toe in but symetrical fins. JeanBoldois designs, before JimmyLewis started consulting on the shapes.
They imported about 40 of them to the US, I shipped half to the East coast to various shops, I sold 12 of them to my friends who frequent PaloMarin, Limantour, and Dillon beach wave riding spots.
Is that what you wanted to know?


My sailing ability has nothing to do with this discussion, I sail, I like it, no I did not compete at the AWT . I can't phantom that me posting about the wonderful day that I had at Dougs, Hood River is going to be of interest.

Thank you for the J.Lewis report on his twins, never seen one, nor heard of one, had a single.Never heard of Jean Boldois.
NO what I wanted to know as which board you can currently purchase or in at least the 2000s that had toe in. I only know of ONE production board that uses asymmetrical fins

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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JamesHardy wrote:
Wow, lighten up you big old dork! In the beginning I thought of you as a novelty, this dude who takes old mediocre boards spends more money and time then he paid for the boards to convert them to something there are not or in the least something thy were not meant to be. But seriously stop acting like your anything other then a hobbyist and that your opinion is anything other then an "opinion".

Zirtaeb you can be a d-bag too this whole "one size fits all" opinions you guys throw out is B.S.. "Multi fin boards are a gimmick" WTF, for DTL there not for bump and jump onshore wave I don't get it. But I'm just a surfer who windsurfs so I'm a little mono- focused.


Your analogy of my persona is interesting. Your lack of knowledge displayed by ' mediocre old boards' $$ and time ( which is mine, so whatever floats my boat is of no concern to you) the last 2 boards I made fin additions to were new out of the box, a 2012 Tabou Rocket, and Naish 2008, neither are mediocre and certainly not old. While it has some basis I have done some older boards, one as an engineering exercise and one for a particular sailing spot, together are worth $300..maybe.

So a inventor starts with a theory, then based on tests that require a certain risk as innovation always does they then form a opinion, about what they are supposing

When others form a similar opinion, then it becomes a proven concept.
What if we put a transmission in the car that shifts itself ?

So I follow some others opinions/theory's and make my own.
Much like the hot roders who modify their cars.

When a large company like NAISH, who went on record as saying, we make single fins, they work well, we will continue to make single fins, now
have a look who make tri fins...... When F2 Fanatic Tabou Quatro Goya..etc add toe to production boards is it a another multi fin craze a gimmick or they may actually have something.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14469

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
NONE::: please read that NONE ::::have asymmetrical fins, front, back, side tri, quad or bonzer .

BZZZZT! Wrong.
See http://bonzer5.com/history/ .

After shaping surf boards for decades, Lester Polyester worked with the legendary Campbell Bros to develop and license his spectacular Gorge Animal Bonzer windsurfing boards based on their carefully researched toe-in angle using Bonzer fins with one flat side ... i.e., assymetrical, taking into account the differences in speed, hull loading, etc. between surf and WS boards. Lester claims that Open Ocean later simply copied the proprietary GA/Campbell Bonzer toe-in angle shamelessly (and illegally) because it works. We want toe-in for at least two reasons: we sideslip (our AOA is non-zero) even in a beam reach, and when up on a rail carving we're also obviously not going straight. Even now that Lester moved to Brazil almost a decade ago, the Bonzer WS boards available under his license still use his and Campbell's licensed toe-in angle. Unfortunately, they no longer incorporate the intricate hull channeling Lester and the Campbells had in their GA Bonzers.

My God ... and to think people think I'M arrogant (and wrong)! It never ceases to amaze me when newbies think history and technology began at their birth or even at their subsequent discovery of the wheel.


Last edited by isobars on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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