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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of catching good swells on a crowded day at The Hatch as a chess game. Gotta think a couple moves ahead. My favorite move is jibing behind a couple of BAFers going the other way and using them as pawns to take up space and block the way. When a set comes through you know they won`t jump on one and they get in the way of swell riders coming the other way so the choice of swells is mine! If you`re following behind a bunch of good riders forget it, all the swells are gonna be snagged before you get there.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottwerden wrote:
There are no collisionless gases here on earth. I did all my research on NASA projects launched into the ionosphere and magnetosphere.

That was one of the applications we considered, and that was in 1967.
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biffmalibu



Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Westender was basically assaulted. Reply with quote

He was not battered, thanks to his ditch. It's stupid and illegal to threaten collision. Westender is right to bring up his instance and the issue.

I am joking a little when I state (my) fundamental rules of the river, giving priority to all swell-surfers. I am keenly aware of my responsibility to avoid collision, whether I am surfing swell or mowing across it. I have ditched many times. Ditching (controlled wipe-out) is often the only solution as surfing swell usually means being underpowered. Otherwise, we could simply change course and shred away.

Which brings me to Mitch. I'm glad Mitch decided to state his point of view, which is basically that of an arch-mower. I like Mitch, and I disagree that starboard and luffing are the ultimate rules that should be followed. They are no excuse for not avoiding collision OR mowing on a threatening course. And I think most reasonable judges would agree. We are not in a yacht race out there.

Mower: Since I was downwind and on starboard point of sail, I had right of way! So the collision was Westender's fault.
Judge: But did you still have time and space to avoid this collision?
Mower: Yes. Lots.
Judge: Judgement goes to defendant (Westender) as plaintiff (Mower) intentionally and UNNECESSARILY held collision course when he could have easily avoided.

(hypothetical scenario; I doubt Mitch is the one who assaulted Westender.)

I used to mow. Then I learned to surf on the ocean. Once I got back on the river, finding and riding swell became more possible and more enjoyable. Too bad that swell-surfers get in the way of mowers and vice versa, when the river is crowded. I think both should be aware (look around) and give way if possible. Powered sailors (mowers) are much faster and able to give way much more easily and in a shorter amount of time. Too bad about that precious ideal ramp you think you saw behind Westender. There is probably another one a safe distance behind.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1184
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Close Biff but your conversation is off with the LEGAL ROW not "racing rule"

It would go like this (have you ever been a court?)

Plaintiff Attorney (the one with ROW) to plaintiff... "were you on a sailing vessel approaching another sailing vessel ?"

Plaintiff "yes"
Plaintiff Atty "What point of sail were you on"
Plaintiff "Starboard"
Plaintiff Atty "what did you do?"
Plaintiff "held my course"...

Plaintiff Atty to Defendant (swell rider)
"What course were you on"
Deffendant "starboard and port"
Plaintiff Atty "how could you be on both?"
Def "I was riding the swell and changing my heading"
Plaintiff Atty "Did you try to avoid the other vessel who had ROW?"
Def "No dude I was riding the swell he can go around me"

I think you can see how the judge will rule if you have ANY law experience...

Once again I will say I also enjoy riding swell but "surfing etiquette" doesn't trump legal ROW for vessels on navigable waters. You can HOPE that the others will go around you but don't count on it here in the summer...
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying to be nice.

There were actually 2 Douche Bags that day. It was a Retard Dragrace in gusty marginal wind for my admirers. Both on port tack, I was surfing with no wind but sail on starboard.

I figure they needed to keep the hammer down to avoid swimming or losing the race across the river. One passed behind and one in front. I wasn't sure which one was most likely to ram me. They knew I could jump up and get going no problem so hey, FU Mr. Showoff??????????????
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1184
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westender wrote:
I was trying to be nice.

There were actually 2 Douche Bags that day. It was a Retard Dragrace in gusty marginal wind for my admirers. Both on port tack, I was surfing with no wind but sail on starboard.

I figure they needed to keep the hammer down to avoid swimming or losing the race across the river. One passed behind and one in front. I wasn't sure which one was most likely to ram me. They knew I could jump up and get going no problem so hey, FU Mr. Showoff??????????????


Another reason why I avoid the Hatch during the crowds. That actually sounds like a normal day. At least you didn't get injured or any gear damaged..
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1184
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually idiots are all over the place. A week ago I was sailing out of waterfront park (also a mistake during the crowds) after work. After an hour sailing I was heading back to the launch. I caught a gust and accelerated a couple hundred yards off the launch. As I got closer I heard a sailor upwind and behind me. As I got less than 100 feet from the launch I slowed and the upwind sailor blasted a jibe between me and the launch. Well there were three sailors water starting by the launch and the sailor came within 20 feet of them (and about the same of me) at full speed in a planing jibe (and to give her credit it was a beautiful jibe). I admired her form about the same time I yelled "a$$hole".

Now she had two choices that wouldn't have endangered anybody. Tack upwind (what I would have done) or slow down and do a non planing jibe. But you can't look cool doing that.

Next time I hold my line/speed and put her into the wall (or she can slow instead)...

So dangerous people don't just hang out at the hatch...
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, I count my blessings.

It wasn't the Hatchery, there weren't a lot of people out.

My request is that people have a higher regard for safety and mutual enjoyment.
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biffmalibu



Joined: 30 May 2008
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Yes, I have some law experience and education. Reply with quote

There is no need to be insulting. Let me explain my point another way, aside from the stupid starboard stuff.

Imagine the driver of a car going down a one-way street the proper way. On the way, this driver notices (with plenty of space and time to avoid) another car driving towards him, the wrong way. Now, even though the second driver is already breaking the law and is completely in the wrong, the first driver who is driving the the proper way will not be excused if he maintains course and speed which results in a crash. Why? Because he could have readily dones something to avoid an incident.

Just because someone is in the right does not excuse an incident or crime if it could have been avoided. This legal concept is called REASONABLENESS, and it trumps the rules. It also applies to legal contracts which include waivers of liability. No waiver is iron-clad if it can be shown to be unreasonable. Something to keep in mind when making business agreements/contracts.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1184
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Yes, I have some law experience and education. Reply with quote

biffmalibu wrote:
There is no need to be insulting. Let me explain my point another way, aside from the stupid starboard stuff.

Imagine the driver of a car going down a one-way street the proper way. On the way, this driver notices (with plenty of space and time to avoid) another car driving towards him, the wrong way. Now, even though the second driver is already breaking the law and is completely in the wrong, the first driver who is driving the the proper way will not be excused if he maintains course and speed which results in a crash. Why? Because he could have readily dones something to avoid an incident.

Just because someone is in the right does not excuse an incident or crime if it could have been avoided. This legal concept is called REASONABLENESS, and it trumps the rules. It also applies to legal contracts which include waivers of liability. No waiver is iron-clad if it can be shown to be unreasonable. Something to keep in mind when making business agreements/contracts.


This is a one sided point of view (and no I wasn't trying to be insulting just showing the flaw of your argument) because you are looking at it one sided. WHAT did the swell rider do to avoid the accident?? Because BOTH riders have that responsibility. You can't place the entire responsibility on the person with ROW.

And in your car example, I would have cited the wrong way driver. The insurance companies MIGHT find the cause would be shared but the wrong way driver caused the situation to happen due to their illegal driving. If they never went the wrong way the accident would have never happened. 29 years as an LEO gives me the knowledge on that one...

Your windsurfing example would be accurate if the swell rider never saw the sailor with ROW and ROW rider hit the other rider just because he had the right. But if BOTH riders saw each other the one with ROW is required to hold course and the other is required to change course.
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