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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5891

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to G.T for the perspective, and some much needed humor. As we age, we certainly need a lot more the latter. You've got better than 10 years on me, so I'm only beginning to realize my fate. I have to admit though, I'm going to have work a lot harder, and with far more determination to keep up with my mind. My goal is to keep up with you.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:
condense .. ? and the long version looks like what ? the NY city phone book ?

4 pages here of someones rhetorical rants ,

with 3 semi serious contributions, with the most support here, still saying , some is quite questionable

The body of knowledge feeding into that list and others like it is based on everything from paleontology (e.g., interval training) to a century of formal lab and field study of modern man. Tens of thousands of exercise physiologists, physicians, athletes, weekend warriors, and couch potatoes have used and contributed to such data. It’s been condensed through peer review and public acceptance into many thousands of published research findings and thousands of books, condensed yet again into the hundred or so selected books and several hundred RCT studies I’ve read, then further condensed by my time constraints and motivation into this book summary for people who want to do their own homework and make informed choices affecting their lives, rather than just doin’ what feels good. My guess is that the NYC phone book wouldn’t even hold an abbreviated table of contents of the body of knowledge thus condensed into just my opening post let alone the rest of exercise physiology. It’s condensed by well over 100 from this condensed book alone, and by a factor of …what? … 100,000? 10**6? 10**7? from the bigger picture.

I can understand why many people are not willing to put this much into learning about their sports or health; it takes a ton of time and effort to do it right. I can further understand, and am informed by many athletic trainers, that most people -- reportedly including California's recent governator -- lack the will power to push their minds and bodies as hard as the BBS and PACE methods advocate, despite their tremendous benefits. I don’t understand, though, why such people want to criticize, denigrate, and/or disbelieve people who have based their careers on developing and applying such a body of information and followers who wish to benefit from that knowledge. I suspect the answer my topical question separates the former from the latter.
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slinky



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 429
Location: Old Saybrook Ct.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
slinky wrote:
Consider also that we are all unique. What works for one does not necessarily work for everyone.
If it feels good do it! If it hurts, try another aproach.

Too many generalizations make my head spin. Thre are no simple answers.

I like Marchant's advice the best, just keep active! He is certainly an inspiration! If he did it , maybe we all can! I'll give it my best shot.

How can aerobics possibly be bad? It's got to be better than sitting on ones duff.

Exercise does not have to be strenuous to be good for you. It should be enjoyable more than anything else.


I'll spare you all 20 pages of counterarguments and explanations.


Do I detect a note of condescension here? Or maybe you don't know how to adress the fact that: we are in fact all unique individuals. And that there are in fact, no absolute rules that apply to everyone.

The one about the most dehydrated runners? Don't think so! They are the ones that will be picked up off the tarmak, dead, or possibly alive. It happened to the dean of the business school here at uconn. He died due to dehydration while running on a hot summer day.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No condescension, Slinky. I just don't have the time to rebut the many comments you make that the literature disproves.

Very quick example: You call my list both "generalizations" and "absolute rules" -- opposites, IMO. In fact they are neither. Each is the best one-liner summary I could come up with in limited time summarizing each of those research conclusions. No one thinks every one of those statements describes the outcome of every individual; that's not how bell curves operate.

However, for example, Dr. Timothy Noakes, professor of exercise and sports science at Cape Town's University of South Africa and a seminal figure in hydration science, said during an extended discussion of the subject: "The most dehydrated runners in in any [long distance] race are the winners." I don't have the time to cite references, but far more runners' deaths are caused by hyponatremia -- drinking too much water -- than by dehydration. Google could find no reference to a death of a U Conn business school dean with any key words I could think of.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1364

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dehydration leads to loss of strength (sustained power output).

Competition cyclists use tables of percentage dehydration coupled to loss of efficiency which are based on practical tests of high performance athletes (cyclists) on turbo trainers using power meters, under controlled conditions. (ie simulated racing power outputs.)

Theses tests show that even a 2% factor of dehydration reduces the ability to sustain power output. The standard accepted in competition is that dehydration is the biggest single factor in slowing performance, and that it should be combated by drinking up to a litre of fluid per hour (especially in hot conditions wher you sweat profusely) to maintain full working efficiency.

Should any high performance competitor ignore this recommendation, especially if sweating profusely in hot weather, they will inevitably 'bonk' or 'blow up' as cyclists term it. (Lose power, and fall way behind.) Should they attempt to push on at high percentages of dehydration they will either collapse, or die.

Unfortunately, some think they know better, and they pay the price, with the inevitable result. (I would add that, the older you get, the greater the danger, and the more importrant hydration becomes.)
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14321

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Theses tests show that even a 2% factor of dehydration reduces the ability to sustain power output. The standard accepted in competition is that dehydration is the biggest single factor in slowing performance, and that it should be combated by drinking up to a litre of fluid per hour (especially in hot conditions wher you sweat profusely) to maintain full working efficiency.

Should any high performance competitor ignore this recommendation, especially if sweating profusely in hot weather, they will inevitably 'bonk' or 'blow up' as cyclists term it. (Lose power, and fall way behind.) Should they attempt to push on at high percentages of dehydration they will either collapse, or die.

Unfortunately, some think they know better, and they pay the price, with the inevitable result.

You've done your homework! Your numbers exactly match Noakes' numbers in this book. The problem is that the back-of-the-pack runners think more is better, drink 2 or 3 times that much, and suffer consequences including death from hyponatremia.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1493

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do not have a complete buy in on Iso's list, I also don't discredit any of it. Too many times in my life time, training theories have become fact and then discredited with new theories. If researchers always came up with confirming data, they wound not have jobs. I am not suggesting that scientific research should be curtailed, just that a certain amount of skepticism should be maintained when looking at new data/theory/facts.

While we are all different, we are also very much the same. However, age, weight, height, muscle mass, fat percentage, lifestyle, diet, strength, conditioning, sex, flexibility, and genetics all impact basic training theory such that there is no one correct answer on how we obtain an optimal level of fitness.

As a swimmer that competed at the highest levels in the mid to late 60's, and as a swimming coach for almost 30 years, training theory hasn't changed that much. What has changed is the focus on technique, and the understanding that the human body is capable of high intensity training well beyond what was considered optimal in the 60's. One of the big issues over the decades for swimmers is over training. Not so much over training, but knowing when to "taper" (reducing the aerobic aspects (mileage) to focus on speed), allowing the body to recover to a point of optimal efficiency, which can take as long as a month. The difficulty is that it is different for every swimmer, some because of how hard they have or have not trained, plus what event they will be swimming (sprint or distance).

My point is that the variables are significant when it comes to fitness and training. Much of what I did 45 years ago, I can't do now. On the other hand, there is much that I do now that I didn't need to do 45 years ago.

When new ideas are presented, I usually give them a try. For example, I do believe in stretching, but not without ample warm up first. I do it for range of motion and injury prevention, not enhanced performance. What I do avoid since reading about the possible dangers of compressing spinal discs and generating some herniation, is the standard toe touching, lower back stretch. I do stretch my lower back, but with MUCH less pressure than I did a few years ago. I assume that 68 year old discs can't take the compression they did 40 years ago.

All too many people in our fattening society are content with their current level of fitness as long as there is some mobility. When they finally wake up, it's usually too late. They just don't know how much fun they can have in their 60's 70's, 80's & 90's. My father lived to be 97 and hiked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back out when he was 88.

Heading out soon because there will be 15-25 wind here today in Raleigh, NC, and will hit 80 degrees. Sorry about all you guys that are iced in.
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 1961
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Isobars must be correct because he uses a high number of adjectives strung together.
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Mulekick84



Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 346

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, Isobars proves what the "I" in front of Windsurf stands for.

Speaking of I, I find I come here less and less!

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I spend all my money on windsurfing and beer, the rest I just waste!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5891

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Tens of thousands of exercise physiologists, physicians, athletes, weekend warriors, and couch potatoes have used and contributed to such data. It’s been condensed through peer review and public acceptance into many thousands of published research findings and thousands of books, condensed yet again into the hundred or so selected books and several hundred RCT studies I’ve read, then further condensed by my time constraints and motivation into this book summary for people who want to do their own homework and make informed choices affecting their lives, rather than just doin’ what feels good. My guess is that the NYC phone book wouldn’t even hold an abbreviated table of contents of the body of knowledge thus condensed into just my opening post let alone the rest of exercise physiology. It’s condensed by well over 100 from this condensed book alone, and by a factor of …what? … 100,000? 10**6? 10**7? from the bigger picture."



I guess we're supposed to be impressed by isobars frequent use of big number relationships. Dozens, scores, hundreds, thousands, millions and maybe a gazillion or two to really spice things up a bit.
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