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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1719
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
NW30, what did we do in Viet Nam when we left?

What, you don't remember?
We lost that war, "retreat with honor" is not a victory.
There was no peace to even try to preserve.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5830

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW30, let me ask you, do you think that we won the war in Iraq? Very early in the war President Bush claimed victory with his "mission accomplished" BS on an aircraft carrier, but that did stop the loss of lives and treasury for years afterward. In the end, we as a country chose to cut our losses and get the hell out. Moreover, it was President Bush that cut and signed the agreement to leave. You may not like it, but that's the truth.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1719
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, you don't remember what BHO said about the stability and peace in Iraq as he was pulling the remainder of our troops out?

I'll just leave it at that for you to figure out.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14226

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
What, you don't remember what BHO said about the stability and peace in Iraq as he was pulling the remainder of our troops out?

Or that it was BHO, not Maliki, who refused to pursue the SOF agreement MANDATORY for troops on the ground.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 598
Location: North Shore High School

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
nw30 wrote:
What, you don't remember what BHO said about the stability and peace in Iraq as he was pulling the remainder of our troops out?

Or that it was BHO, not Maliki, who refused to pursue the SOF agreement MANDATORY for troops on the ground.


There is the world according to Mikey. Then there is the real world:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/no-obama-didnt-lose-iraq-107874.html

As the senior Pentagon official responsible for Iraq policy during the first three years of the Obama administration, I had a front-row seat for the internal deliberations over how to end the war. Through the first half of 2011, there was a vigorous debate within the administration about whether U.S. forces should remain in Iraq beyond December, and if so, in what numbers and with what missions. Ultimately, at great political risk, President Obama approved negotiations with the Iraqi government to allow a force of around 5,000 American troops to stay in Iraq to provide counterterrorism support and air cover and to train the Iraqi army. But, as commander in chief, he was unwilling to strand U.S. forces in a hostile, anti-American environment without the legal protections and immunities required to ensure soldiers didn’t end up in Iraqi jails. These protections, which are common in nearly every country where U.S. forces operate, were guaranteed under the 2008 status of forces agreement negotiated by the Bush administration; Obama simply demanded that they continue under any follow-on accord.

Iraq’s prime minister, Nuri al-Maliki, told U.S. negotiators that he was willing to sign an executive memorandum of understanding that included these legal protections. But for any agreement to be binding under the Iraqi constitution, it had to be approved by the Iraqi parliament. This was the judgment of every senior administration lawyer and Maliki’s own legal adviser, and no senior U.S. military commander made the case that we should leave forces behind without these protections. Even Sen. John McCain, perhaps the administration’s harshest Iraq critic, admitted in a December 2011 speech discussing the withdrawal that the president’s demand for binding legal immunities “was a matter of vital importance.” Moreover, because the 2008 security agreement had been approved by the Iraqi parliament, it seemed both unrealistic and politically unsustainable to apply a lower standard this time around.

Unfortunately, Iraqi domestic politics made it impossible to reach a deal. Iraqi public opinion surveys consistently showed that the U.S. military presence was deeply unpopular (only in Iraqi Kurdistan did a majority of people want American G.I.s to stay). Maliki was willing to consider going to parliament to approve a follow-on agreement, but he was not willing to stick his neck out. Other political factions would have to support the move, and the support wasn’t there. The Sadrists, a populist Shia movement that was now a major bloc in the parliament, were dead set against U.S. troops remaining. Ayad Allawi and Sunni politicians aligned with the Iraqiyya coalition supported a continued U.S. presence, but they knew that most of their Sunni constituents did not. They also wanted to condition their support on Maliki agreeing to additional political concessions. The Kurds were more active in their advocacy for a follow-on agreement, but they could not convince others to go along. So when Iraq’s major political bloc leaders met in early October 2011 in an all-night session, they agreed on the need for continued U.S. “trainers” but said they were unwilling to seek immunities for these troops through the parliament. The die was thus cast. Obama and Maliki spoke on Oct. 21 and agreed that U.S. forces would depart as scheduled by the end of the year.

Some critics assert that the administration was unwilling to offer enough forces to make it worth the Iraqis’ while. But it is not clear Maliki wanted that many troops. Indeed, he was conscious of the extreme unpopularity of a continued U.S. presence among his Shia base, and he had no interest in a sizable U.S. contingent along the Arab-Kurd divide, which is what all of our military’s troop options above the 10,000-man threshold assumed. These disputed boundary areas include Kirkuk as well as parts of Nineveh province north of Mosul and portions of Diyala province—precisely where jihadists are making inroads today.

Others claim the administration spent more time negotiating with itself than it did trying to get a deal from the Iraqis. Perhaps. But, in the end, the immunities issue would likely not have been resolved even if the administration had started negotiations earlier and offered more. There was little the administration could have offered or threatened to change their calculations. It was simply too toxic, politically, for Iraqi politicians to accept.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5248

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya mean mrgybe lied when he claimed a few more pallets of American greenbacks would have been sufficient? Or just that he is prone to claim expertise he sadly lacks? Here was his claim:

Quote:
Those who have never set foot in the Middle East and have absolutely no idea of the prevailing culture, simply don't understand that there is a price for everything. There is absolutely no question that Mailiki could have been persuaded/ bullied/ cajoled/ threatened to accept the type of residual force recommended by the Administration's military advisers


Smug--and wrong. Again.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5830

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What, you don't remember what BHO said about the stability and peace in Iraq as he was pulling the remainder of our troops out?"



Does it really matter what President Obama said? Do you think that any other president would have said something different? What did President Nixon say when we bailed from Viet Nam? He certainly didn't say that we lost the war.

What do you think will be said when we bail from Afghanistan? It won't be President Obama, so you won't have him to crap on in the end.
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youwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 598
Location: North Shore High School

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Ya mean mrgybe lied when he claimed a few more pallets of American greenbacks would have been sufficient? Or just that he is prone to claim expertise he sadly lacks? Here was his claim:

Quote:
Those who have never set foot in the Middle East and have absolutely no idea of the prevailing culture, simply don't understand that there is a price for everything. There is absolutely no question that Mailiki could have been persuaded/ bullied/ cajoled/ threatened to accept the type of residual force recommended by the Administration's military advisers


Smug--and wrong. Again.


I think MG is a proponent of broad executive power. He thinks Maliki could have, and should have, acted without the consent of Parliament, just as he believes that Obama can, and should, act without the consent of Congress.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5248

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

naw, just an arrogant know-it-all.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1719
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
"What, you don't remember what BHO said about the stability and peace in Iraq as he was pulling the remainder of our troops out?"



Does it really matter what President Obama said? Do you think that any other president would have said something different? What did President Nixon say when we bailed from Viet Nam? He certainly didn't say that we lost the war.

What do you think will be said when we bail from Afghanistan? It won't be President Obama, so you won't have him to crap on in the end.


Yes it matters what BHO said, just as it mattered what Nixon said, and they both said totally different things.
Nixon said we are retreating with honor, and nothing about leaving a stable country.
Surely you remember the sight of the choppers lifting panicked people from the roof of our embassy in Da Nang, the former capitol of the former country of South Viet Nam, on the very last day.
But maybe you don't, and I've been taking too much for granted in regards to your memory, maybe you weren't born yet.

"bail from Afghanistan" LOL, perfect choice of words by the way, assuming that happens.

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