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Exceeding the hull speed on older longboards
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2284
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT, I think it was actually a newt.

And now back to our regularly scheduled longboard hysteria.

-Craig

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
In fact I'm hoping, just as John Cleese said in the Holy Grail film when they were trying a suspected witch 'She turned me into a frog!' So when they all turned and stared at him he then sheepishly said, 'but I got better.'

Such, I hope, will my old Bamba do!
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1219

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out Wikipedia has a few useful posts to answer the original question. Perhaps the most relevant graph is this one:

It from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-making_resistance. I think that all classical longboards, including the D2 boards, have at least a "semi-displacement" mode, and most (including the Equipe) have a planing mode.

Railing a longboard using the daggerboard can be seen as a "fine entry" strategy, as defined in the Wikipedia article. The pointed nose on the Equipes, Cats, and Exocet D2s also all serve "fine entry"purposes, reducing the resistance when going from displacement to semi-displacement mode. So the actual curve for these boards is probably a bit more linear.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1219

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this discussion was quite stimulating. I wrote up some of what I learned and saw on my blog at http://boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2015/08/maximum-speed.html
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2345

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice analysis Boardsurf. Enjoyable reading.

Hysteria indeed! (Scheduled or otherwise!) I always thought it was the swivel-eyed short board only mentality that had caused all my sailing buddies to lose their hair.

I only wish they would refrain from frustratingly tearing it out in lumps out on the water when they're stuck in a light wind hole, as my Kona (or Bamba) bears down on them at three times their rate of knots.

It gets on my fin!
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joe_windsurfxxx



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the most important point of boardsurfr's blog post was the conclusion:

If you are a weekend warrior living in a less than ideal windsurf location, then KONA, WindSUP or longboard(old or new) are your BEST weapons !!

Last week shortboarders were having issues with chop, changing winds, etc. I went out with my Mistral Equipe/MEQ and a NorthSails Duke 6.9 with NO issues !!

Two weeks ago a hydrofoiling kiter had issues staying over the water - winds were too light. I was cruising with the MEQ and a HotSailsMaui SpeedFreak 8.5 !!

Since then i decided that longboard comes with me EVERY time I go !!!


Last edited by joe_windsurfxxx on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1219

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I only wish they would refrain from frustratingly tearing it out in lumps out on the water when they're stuck in a light wind hole, as my Kona (or Bamba) bears down on them at three times their rate of knots.

It gets on my fin!

Haha, funny. That's what weed fins are for!

joe_windsurfxxx wrote:
Since then i decided that longboard comes with me EVERY time I go !!!

9 days out of 10 when the wind forecast is less than stellar, the biggest board in my van is my Mistral Pandera, not my big slalom board. I can plane the big slalom board in 14 mph with my 8.5. Schlogging it when the wind drops to 12 is no problem. But on the longboard, I'll have fun instead of "no problems".

That said, I'll put in a plug for shorter high volume boards, though. My lovely wife mostly uses a Bic Nova 170 in light winds - short and fat. But she does light wind freestyle, and rocks. She has plenty of fun, too. Who cares if the board is a bit slower than a longboard? The soft top matters more.. Almost every day when she comes off the water, some random stranger will tell her how amazing she was. Except the one day where a tourist ask her is she was a beginner because she fell often and dropped the sail a lot. I guess she thought sails always come up automatically, and did not really get the level of difficulty in Chacho throws or Duck Tacks. Quite funny, though.

The last couple of days, the longboard stayed in the van, though. Lovely sea breezes completely ignored the forecast and let the locals have fun on 4.7-6.5 m, 86 - 111 l. I love living 15 minutes from the water so we can catch the surprise winds!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2345

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of relevance to hull speeds.

One of our proficient locals has bought a new short/wide mid volume 'super planer' board, for those iffy lighter wind days. Recently, we had a typical such day, of 10 knot type offshore, swirly/gusty/ dead patch going, for the immediate 400 yards or so out, to reach the steadier (though still gusty) parts.

After just a short try, he simply gave up. He wasn't prepared to risk the struggle to get back in if he'd ventured out. The board simply wouldn't point consistently in the counter swirls, and dead stop lulls.

It clearly showed the limitations of this type of board. If they can't plane, they carry no glide or ability to keep pointing with any glide, in such conditions. Not impossible to force back in, but not pleasant, and no fun at all.

The Kona, with daggerboard juggling (half up in short bursts - fully down at crawling speed - feathering the sail and footing the heading in the counter swirls) could hold direction easily. Those conditions can be surprising fun on a longboard, in that, similar to yachting, you feel you are rising to an interesting challenge.

At anyrate, I was out there going where I chose and going just where I wanted to, and nobody else was, lightwind super planers not withstanding!
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3520

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venue
Travel time to venue
Length of season
Typical wind and water conditions
Free time
Experience
Financial status
Physical condition
Physical size - height and weight
Age
Adrenalin need
Ego
Etc., Etc.

It's different for everyone, and the variables we each have to deal with pretty much determine what we want to have under our feet when we venture out. There is a "right" answer for each of us and it can be quite different even for those sailing the same venue.

Take the time to find your "right answer".
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
Well, this discussion was quite stimulating. I wrote up some of what I learned and saw on my blog at http://boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2015/08/maximum-speed.html


Great summary!

These are finer points, but I still think hull speed has some relevance, as a discontinuity in the curves you provide. And the relevance of these inflexion points are linked to the boards you use. This is how longboards distinguish between themselves.

In very low winds, my old boards are effortless, while the Kona requires mimimum effort. I think the Kona is never purely in diplacement mode, always trying, even if only a little, to semi-plane because of the shape of the nose.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2284
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey GT, must be a British thing.

-Craig


GURGLETROUSERS wrote:

Hysteria indeed! (Scheduled or otherwise!) I always thought it was the swivel-eyed short board only mentality that had caused all my sailing buddies to lose their hair.

I only wish they would refrain from frustratingly tearing it out in lumps out on the water when they're stuck in a light wind hole, as my Kona (or Bamba) bears down on them at three times their rate of knots.

It gets on my fin!



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