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whitevan01



Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 605

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PP is correct, of course. One needs to learn to look ahead to windward to see gusts/lulls that are coming up, so one can anticipate whether to move weight back/bear off/head up to absorb gust or to move weight a little forward/bear off to keep planing through lulls. Vision ahead and to windward is key in sailing any kind of craft.
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scargo



Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 394

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with PP, whitevan, and techno.

No one is advocating not learning to sail in both straps. My point was only that getting the front foot in will "stabilize . . . against" (i.e., not prevent) catapults. My thinking was that if getting in the straps is a big obstacle, as it seems to be for the OP, maybe starting with the front one would help him overcome it. But maybe he should simply focus on getting into both (in whichever order he wants to), and for now forget about the niceties of taking the back foot out for underpowered/under-litered situations. Who knows.

I will argue, however, that the front foot alone can give you tremendous power with which to resist the sail's force. Here's a thought expirement: imagine you're in a tug-o-war with another guy. You'll both instictively assume a leg position that looks roughly like a windsurfing stance. You'll lock (or soft lock) your front leg and rely on it for resistance & power, while using the back leg to guard against the other guy intentionally slacking the line to make you to fall backwards. The harder he pulls, the more you'll rely on your front leg, to the point where maybe you take your weight entirely off your back leg. Although the sail's pull is admittedly from a higher angle than is the tug-o-war rope, this hypo holds true until you're being pulled from directly above, at which point neither leg has any inherent advantage, and you'd like someone to drop a bag of flour on either foot.

Point is, the front strap provides mostly lateral stability, which is what you rely on the most. As long as you're fully committed to the harness, with your weight bearing down, you can only get catapulted by getting pulled through (instead of over) that force vector. If you're getting catapulted with your front foot in the strap, you're probably doing something else wrong.

The advice we give is always colored by our own experience. I've been sailing comfortably in both straps for nearly 20 years, and it wasn't until a professional windsurfer told me recently that he rarely puts his back foot in the strap that I started to experiment with that approach -- which, as others have said, is great for marginal conditions. Also, being able to tweak the position of my back foot position has helped me become more sensitive to the trim of the board, which has, in turn, helped me sail with smaller fins & sails. That said, when I'm powered and blasting, I of course use both straps.

Sometimes being given "permission" to sail a certain way can be really useful, which is what I had in mind. But if others are saying, keep it simple, and first learn to be proficient in both straps, that's a fair point too.
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NickB



Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 510
Location: Alameda, CA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally agree with the above regarding front strap leverage vs. catapult, the tug-o-war analogy is great: if I'm being pulled forward, I'd rather have my front foot against a curb than my back one. And from a trimming perspective, much easier to subtly trim with the front foot in.

I also think that for many people straps are a totally unnecessary constraint and should just be removed for the sake/pleasure of the user. Why are all these big rental/school boards (Vipers, Go, etc.) fully strapped when you virtually never see any renters/learners using them? Yeah that's what occasional windsurfer want, some obstacles for their feet to deal with or trip on!

Baby steps... and that's why also thing windSUPs are the way to go for newcomers: SUP on it for a while, get used to the board when no wind. Add sail when ready, go back & forth, longboard tacks & jibes, first planing runs in the gusts, first catapults unattached (no straps no harness), progress to harness, pivot jibes and beachstart/waterstart. Only then should you even be considering the use of straps, until then they'll just mess with your fun.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19216

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whitevan01 wrote:
PP is correct, of course. One needs to learn to look ahead to windward to see gusts/lulls that are coming up, so one can anticipate whether to move weight back/bear off/head up to absorb gust or to move weight a little forward/bear off to keep planing through lulls.

Then, as skills progress, learn to adjust instantly and subconsciously. I'm too focused on the terrain to be looking upwind, and often enough the first indicator of a dramatic power change is the dramatic power change, especially in air made unstable by atmospheric or topographical conditions.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19216

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
artistic license comes with vast experience. if some one has not been able to advance because folks are teaching, via www, to cut corners, than those advising pass along hackdom?

fanning the leach does very little good when one is trying to use a 9.0 in 9-13 mph.

hooking in during prolonged and hopeless slogging does not apply on this thread?

these forums are quite full of bullshit

They surely are, especially from anyone who so frequently insists that his way is the only way.

No one said anything about 9 meter sails.

We can't even tell whether you're for or against hooking in for long slogs. That's a good thing, because whether it's advantageous depends.

There ya go again, attacking the messenger because your message doesn't hold water.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19216

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
I will also remove my back foot when the wind drops in order to stay planing

They need to position their straps toward the center and forward. .

Or spread them as far apart as possible so they can rely on simple, subconscious weight shifts as power comes and goes.

Because it's much safer, provides a much greater range of center of gravity adjustment, and makes gust management much simpler, it's my front foot that comes out of the straps when I must get my weight farther forward than the front strap allows. This is especially important on smaller boards and in extremely gusty winds, where power can change tenfold within one second and tails sink even with both feet well forward.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1726

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of what you've posted applies to the OP or the situation we've been discussing. The guy is on a Kona, and you're talking about "smaller boards and in extremely gusty winds, where power can change tenfold within one second and tails sink even with both feet well forward." Spreading the straps as far apart as possible sets up an overleveraged, inefficient, hostile-to-early-planing situation that will impede the lower intermediate sailor from learning to use the straps, trim the board etc. While he's at it he could attach his harness lines three feet apart. Your advice is all wrong for him...classic "starfish" intermediate windsurfer mistake. You're suggesting leverage when what he needs is a balanced setup.

Weight shifting fore and aft in response to wind strength is done on all boards and all setups, btw, and the focus of the forward swing is to weight the mast foot via the boom, not the front foot.

isobars wrote:

Or spread them as far apart as possible so they can rely on simple, subconscious weight shifts as power comes and goes.

Because it's much safer, provides a much greater range of center of gravity adjustment, and makes gust management much simpler, it's my front foot that comes out of the straps when I must get my weight farther forward than the front strap allows. This is especially important on smaller boards and in extremely gusty winds, where power can change tenfold within one second and tails sink even with both feet well forward.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9464

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than hear more from isobars, as we undoubtedly will, I'm wondering how well Del is doing in the time since his last post. Has he been able to make some headway with some of the suggestions offered?
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 502

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Del!

I think I see 2 issues with your set-up. Is your centerboard fully retracted? It should be. It looks like it is down a little. Also, is your mast within 1 or 2 inches of the front? It should be up there.

Here's the video from the Worlds you went to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFch1pjBr5s

You may as well look at what the top Kona sailors in the world look like when planing. There are images of Ras, etc. planing. The weird thing is that I am in the video out in front at 3:40. My board is noticeably flatter than most others. I think that was just a temporary thing. BUT, in general, unless WAY overpowered, I don't use the back strap much.

Look at yellow sail 1284 in the first minute and a half of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4KLuqLXo8
He's freeriding with the mast track back. The nose is up until he really gets wound up. That guy won 2010 Kona Worlds.
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 656

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
Is your centerboard fully retracted? It should be. It looks like it is down a little.


I didn't spot that, your're right, it's not in for sure. It makes a major difference in the planing setup if it is out even a bit.
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