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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lots of rationalizations from lotsa folks when i discuss this over the years.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19378

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
talked 20 + folks out of BFF over my 3 decades sailing in florida. seen 2 quit the sport that were too stubborn to try something different..

I've seen many folks say BFF got them into the straps after years of failure at FFF. Joe and Dana quit the sport because they could not get in FFF (they were talked out of trying BFF.)

Different strokes.

As for "If I need to pump to get planing, I get out of the hook and pump." ... key word: hook. With a roller bar, I can pump one way (fanning the leech) enough to make the difference if not grossly underpowered.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fanning the leach is only truly effective to help coast thru lulls compared to actual full body pumping. another rationalization seen and heard for decades.

fanning the leach done often unsuccessfully by the very same folks with the self inflicted glass ceilings. others that pump to plane for real leave the fanny folks way behind.

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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1240

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Front foot first is the standard. It is much more effective for many reasons.
As your board starts to plane a sudden shift of your weight to the rear will stall your board and cause you to round up wind. Maybe in Gorge like wind you can get away with BFF but not in your average lite wind day. I often sail in the front strap only. If I'm in both straps and I hit a lull, I will head down wind and remove my back foot to make it thru. The key is to keep your board flat to get going and to keep going when the wind dies. If you have enough wind to get in the back strap, then you have enough wind to be in both....
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19378

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
fanning the leach is only truly effective to help coast thru lulls compared to actual full body pumping. another rationalization seen and heard for decades.

fanning the leach done often unsuccessfully by the very same folks with the self inflicted glass ceilings. others that pump to plane for real leave the fanny folks way behind.

Of course full body pumping is more powerful than fanning. I never said otherwise, and I do it once in a great while in the wind shadow. That has nothing to do with the scenario I described ... not quite enough wind to plane passively yet enough than fanning is sufficient to resume full plane.

I fail to see why you repeatedly insist that pumping must be full body or nothing at all, that anything less than imitating a gorilla on hot pavement indicates a lack of skill. IMO, having more than one trick in the bag, whether it's BFF, fanning, hooking in before planing, waterstarting hooked and/or strapped in, and many more reflects greater skill, not less. As for denigrating people for developing and using additional skills ... how lame is that? Isn't confining one's skills to a mere handful of techniques an excellent example of erecting a glass ceiling?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19378

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVAAN wrote:
Front foot first is the standard. It is much more effective for many reasons.
As your board starts to plane a sudden shift of your weight to the rear will stall your board and cause you to round up wind. Maybe in Gorge like wind you can get away with BFF but not in your average lite wind day. I often sail in the front strap only. If I'm in both straps and I hit a lull, I will head down wind and remove my back foot to make it thru. The key is to keep your board flat to get going and to keep going when the wind dies. If you have enough wind to get in the back strap, then you have enough wind to be in both....

I disagree completely with that last comment, for many reasons stated literally dozens of times. That WILL sink the tail of a small slogging board.

Do you realize that this has been beaten to death at least 100 times in at least 20 threads ... no exaggeration? And are you not aware that CORRECTLY PERFORMED BFF has NOTHING to do with weighting the tail ... for at least the 50th time? Or that BFF DONE CORRECTLY, although less advantageous in some scenarios, still works in any amount of wind on any size board? Caveat: as I've said many times, I have no idea how it might apply to boards with back straps in the rails.

For the 51st time in case it's still not clear: Sinking the tail is operator error, regardless of foot placement or strap entry.

And does ANYONE REALLY want to revisit the hazards of sailing with only the front foot in its strap?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9517

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"...I have no idea how it might apply to boards with back straps in the rails."


How about that. isobars admits to his lack of understanding about using the boards that many folks have today, particularly in lighter wind locales. One wonders why he always thinks that he's such an authority on everything.

gvogelsang, I'm with you. Us older guys have to use our experience to our benefit. If I had to depend on my brawn to muscle myself around, windsurfing would tucker me out quickly.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3320

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

applying gorge experiences to all reading stuff on the world wide web takes a world wide view, not deep in the ditch view. the columbia river gorge is a mighty big ditch that acts as a wind tunnel, offers side shore launches and opposing currents. outside of the few that sail racing stuff from the event site, i take a huge grain of salt from gorge folks that offer advice.

those of us that need 52+cm fins, 9.0 + sails AND outboard straps have a different perspective more representative of what goes in in the WORLD?

shoot, my 11'5" wave board performs best for me with the front straps outboard. the importer and i argued about that for years. he changed his mind, finally, when we switched back and forth between it and the x-wave 129. he now agrees with that setting i have enjoyed for a huge number of wave rides....

we are a stubborn lot, we windsurfers. we haven't gone alkita yet, but damn we all need to keep our scientific method at hand.

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19378

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
applying gorge experiences to all reading stuff on the world wide web takes a world wide view, not deep in the ditch view. the columbia river gorge is a mighty big ditch that acts as a wind tunnel, offers side shore launches and opposing currents. outside of the few that sail racing stuff from the event site, i take a huge grain of salt from gorge folks that offer advice.

Regurgitating that very old, stale, often-stated and thoroughly false argument AGAIN is an egregious and shamefully transparent attempt to mislead new or less astute readers. You knew that, were out of facts, and chose to play that marked card for the 8th or 10th time anyway. Shame on you. *Hey ... at least this time you spoke your mind in public rather than lobbing a much worse bomb via PM.)

jingebritsen wrote:
we all need to keep our scientific method at hand.

Agreed. Analysis of the physics involved is what led me to my technique in the first place and explains why enlightened sailors around the world added it to their repertoire. I'm really sorry you have been unable to understand it, as demonstrated many times by your ad nauseum insistence that it sinks the tail and works only in high winds.
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joe_windsurfxxx



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay ...
if John and Mike are ready to go at it on the water
once in Florida and another in the Gorge
to compare notes
i would put in $100
but someone MUST film !! Very Happy
who's in ??
put it in Pete DeKay's new mag Windsurfing NOW
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