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Ezzy Cheetah vs. Sailworks Retro 8.5
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wynsurfer



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 9.0 Retro that is a bit old, '07 i think, and the 490 Joystick, and also have 7.5, and 6.5 Ezzy Cheetahs and Ezzy rdm masts. They are both great sails. The 9.0 pulls like a tractor if you need it to and can also handle a lot of wind. I like to sail lit up. If there is flat water, I can handle the Retro up to about 20, maybe a little more. I can probably plane in about 12 mph with the Retro. I weigh 160 lb. and sail with a Tabou Rocket 145. The Retro is a bit heavy, and I find it a bit of a hassle to rig compared to the Ezzys, my only complaint, but every bit as rugged as the Ezzys.Retro does have a bit more low end pull.

The Ezzys are what I sail 90% of the time mainly because of the confused chop we see here on days where the wind is 10-20. A 9.0 meter sail is just too big and heavy for me to deal with when it's choppy. The Retro is a great sail until you drop it in the water.

I'm thinking of selling the Retro and the 7.5 Cheetah and buying a Zephyr. I hate cams.

Even with a 9.0 meter sail it does not start to get fun until the wind hits 15+
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, the WindSUP planes early IMO, catches waves easily, and goes through the chop great, which allows a nice top end speed. The larger fin helped with earlier planing, more up wind, and more top speed. It is not too hard to turn although probably a bit harder than the smaller stock fin.

I think I met just one guy using a sail over 8, and he was about 220, so he has 60 lbs on me. So the 9 and 10 sails are just too big for our conditions. I guess it is the choppy water, the waves, or the up and down wind, not sure because I have not sailed other locations, especially where they sail formula boards. My guess is they have flatter conditions, and a more steady light wind.

I am kind of breaking new ground at my location as most people think smaller is better, and most are sailing 120 liters or smaller with smaller sails, however, I don't see them on the light wind days.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slinky, you are making me rethink if I am doing the right thing. I too love the 7.5 and 6.5 Ezzy sails when the wind supports it. I know you say the Retro has more low end pull, but that is a 9 compared to a 7.5, so it makes sense.

I was also considering a 8.0 sail so maybe that is big enough to take advantage of the lighter wind while not being over powered when it comes up.

I am encouraged to hear you can take the Retro 9 to 20 mph. If that is the case my 8 or 8.5 sail might replace my 7.5 Ezzy.

Your comments about Cams are what stopped me from buying a sail with cams, but perhaps the new Lion has made Cams a non-issue. Seems like it is not too difficult to rig once you get the hang of it.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19299

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
I too love the 7.5 and 6.5 Ezzy sails when the wind supports it..

Heck, I love a plywood sail when it's planing and nothing else is ... BUT ... Keep in mind that in that size range an extra square meter adds something like one mph to your planing threshold, according to east coast Sailworks rep Roger Jackson years ago. Is that little boost likely to get you planing significantly more often, or is it more likely to just mean carrying more weight and bulk as you keep on slogging?

I'd take a long hard look at what wind statistics and the seat of my pants show about the answer to that question. About two long slogs and one uphauling with 9 meters and I'd be kicking myself in the butt, hard, over the decision to buy a bigger sail and the optimal mast for it. (Going big without optimizing the mast strikes me as an even bigger monetary and hassle risk for an even smaller advantage.)

Have you phoned Sailworks? Bruce tests his gear to the third decimal place, may even have some direct informal comparisons with other brands, and will not BS you just to sell product. He may also have some killer deals going (don't overlook Windance's big, very lightly used Cheetahs and Lions).

Of course, many Northwave fans would say you're nuts not buying a NW 511, owners of which say it combines the best features of a John Deer diesel tractor and an Indy car.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5071
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
U2U2U2, I am using the http://www.exocet-original.com/wind-sup10.php. I also run with a 50 cm racing fin instead of the stock fin. http://www.mauifin.com/catalog/windsurf/windsurf-fins/kpr/

I weigh 160 lbs. and do find I am pretty exhausted after 1 hour with my 7.5 sail, although I do not feel over powered. So I am a light weight.

The reviews on the Lion say it is the best cammed sail to rig and easy to use, although maybe it is still considerably harder than a non-cammed sail. I am willing to put up with a little extra rigging time to get more low end power and more upper end wind stability, if that claim is really true.

I do have a concern that the improvement will be marginal, because I realize at a certain low wind speed nothing will get me on a plane. It is just tough to tell what it will be like without trying it. I am hoping it is faster, with more upwind speed, and more low end power, and less stalling in the gusts.

isobars, good to know about the Retro, that is why it is at the top of my list along with the Ezzy.


At your weight , similar to me, I feel the improvement on a 8.5 is minimal. You will need a 490 , maybe a longer boom, it will be heavier, and the $$ amount for any improvement so slight. I did the 8.5 Lion over a 7.5 Ezzy Freeride.

And yes I don't like CAMS.

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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars, excellent idea. I will give Sailworks a call.

Planing 1 mph earlier, while nice, is not the only reason for the purchase. My last session on my 7.5 while a lot of fun, might have been even more fun with a little more power. I could plane easily enough, but I had to head some what down wind. So I kept going further down the beach to have fun. Eventually I had to head more into the wind to get back, and that required a long non-planing run to get back to where I started. Also, when planing, I was not always fully powered.

I guess I am being spoiled, but I want to maximize my fun as much as possible on the water. I have wasted some money trying things to get there, but I am definitely having more fun than on my old equipment, and getting a lot more quality time on the water.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5071
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Ezzys have long had a reputation -- even among devoted fans -- of sailing great one year, ordinary or even comparably poor the next, then great again. He is wiling to try new ideas (remember the neoprene wedge in the head to encourage leech twist in the gusts?), some of which aren't too successful despite his personal obsession with exceptional build quality.

OTON, I have never heard (or made) even one complaint about ANY Retro, with the possible and rare exception of magazine gear testers who are supposed to find something to complain about. Their only shortcoming, and it's slight, seems to be in racing to upwind buoys head to head against comparable drivers on top cambered race sails. Bruce and his Retro fans feel that singular difference is a small price to pay for their perceived/claimed superiority in virtually every other rigging and performance factor.

EZZY SAILS::
I know of ONE particular year that had a problem , it's outrageous to suggest every other year.
And I never heard of any such wedge, when 1999?

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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2, thanks for your feedback. I do have the largest Chinook Carbon Boom and a 490 partial Carbon Mast not being used, so it would just be the cost of the sail.

However, you are saying the 8.5 Lion vs. the 7.5 Ezzy Freeride was minimal difference, so that is not encouraging.

What slinky said is really hitting me too.

He said "The Ezzys are what I sail 90% of the time mainly because of the confused chop we see here on days where the wind is 10-20. A 9.0 meter sail is just too big and heavy for me to deal with when it's choppy. The Retro is a great sail until you drop it in the water."
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SeaDawg



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 384

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cams Vs, No cams.......One of my sailing Venues Is Lake Erie. Predominant winds are from Sw--Nw a typical wind can be 12-22 lots of puffy gusts. In those conditions I've found that cambered sails really smooth out the lows and highs. When the wind is out of the E-Ne the wind tends to be steady as a rock.

I have a NP Diablo 7.2 and a Hot Sails Stealth 8.5 from 2002 that are really sweet in those conditions. I more or less gave those sails to one of my sons and he still likes using them.
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wynsurfer



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I said the Retro had more low end pull, I was not comparing the sail size, 9.0 vs. 7.5, but to other sails I have used in the past that were of comparable size. The Retro has about the same low end pull as as the Ezzy Lion. Both have a rather wide luff sleeve which makes waterstarts and uphauling more tiresome. Which is why many prefer a no cam sail.
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