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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk about hypocrisy. Even an idiot like you should be able to recognize that.
"This person over here is a total liar and manipulator. Hey, I know, I'll make her Secretary of State so she can continue being a total liar and manipulator."

And stupid, I wouldn't support Trump either. I've never made that statement so stop with your lying there Hitler wannabe.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14839
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NP wrote:
Talk about hypocrisy. Even an idiot like you should be able to recognize that.
"This person over here is a total liar and manipulator. Hey, I know, I'll make her Secretary of State so she can continue being a total liar and manipulator."

And stupid, I wouldn't support Trump either. I've never made that statement so stop with your lying there Hitler wannabe.


whats wrong with taking the right wing money from financial and lobbyists and using it to harm them..... you don't get it..... daaaaaaaaaaa stupid canadian thinks he knows all politics... again you do not win unless you take the rich peoples money the way it is set up. and then you pass laws against them. Thats what dems do, dems fought citizens united at every step, the right wingers fought for unlimited spending at every step to the supreme idiots that it was 5-4 right wing idiots who said unlimited dark money is not corrupting politics. you are an idiot.

It is your canadian neighbors that called you the Hitler.... as a kid no less, I have never witnessed such a low thing in an adult so to me it just means you were a monster then as well as now. You going to go load up the van full of fertilizer you claimed you were going to do and drive to the USA?

Trump is your twin in everything political...


That is your stupid canadian take.

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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

real-human wrote:
whats wrong with taking the right wing money from financial and lobbyists and using it to harm them.....


Gee, I don't know. I guess Obama was just bringing that up for no reason at all, right? Daaaaaa, who's stupid then, him or you? Glad to see you're stupid take on it is that you support and encourage that sort of behavior from your leaders.

AND no, I've invested in drones. They are way more cost effective and efficient.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

real-human wrote:
whats wrong with taking the right wing money from financial and lobbyists and using it to harm them.....


and daaaaaaaaa, I bet that audience was filled with people who shared his vision and his outlook on what Clinton was up to. An audience of idiots by your reasoning? Were you there that day? I bet you were, come on, admit it.

Hey, do you think if he was dragging her through the mud in present time, that he would be bringing up her emails? Oh, I bet he would, followed by the secret "wink wink, nudge nudge"
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14839
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NP wrote:
real-human wrote:
whats wrong with taking the right wing money from financial and lobbyists and using it to harm them.....


Gee, I don't know. I guess Obama was just bringing that up for no reason at all, right? Daaaaaa, who's stupid then, him or you? Glad to see you're stupid take on it is that you support and encourage that sort of behavior from your leaders.

AND no, I've invested in drones. They are way more cost effective and efficient.


daaa he was trying to win a nomination. He too took the same types of monies later..... daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

But guess what he too went after the corporations with the various departments. oh they contributed to him and he still went after them. Poor wells fargo. But I do believe there should have been jail time for the top brass who made bank having the 5000 or so employees cheat the system. gee only a 185 million dollar fine.

Gee Christie let trump off a by 25 million and exon was in the hundreds of millions.

Quote:
Donald Trump's $30 million tax debt to New Jersey was reduced via settlement to $5 million after Gov. Chris Christie took office.
Christie says he's been friends with Trump for years and Trump made a large political contributions at Christie's request
Christie also took fire on a state settlement with another political contributor, Exxon Mobil

Quote:

Donald Trump Just Helped Chris Christie Pay Off His Campaign Debt


exxon one was 225 million when the state was requesting 8.9 billion. Do ya think Exxon likes Christie?

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, while we have differed on issues in the past, do you think that I've been unfair or untoward in my comments?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler said:
Quote:
techno900, while we have differed on issues in the past, do you think that I've been unfair or untoward in my comments?

While I disagree with many of your posts, you typically stay out of the gutter, unlike some other posters here, both right and left.

I think being "unfair" means totally ignoring the negatives on your side of the issue, which I think you do from time to time. There are clear differences between what conservatives and liberals believe and want, so trying to move someone from one side of the fence to the other is futile.

However, I believe that not acknowledging the short comings of our candidates is being unfair. I think all conservatives here have clearly expressed our concerns with Trump, and there are many, but we still favor him over Hillary. Most of you on the left hold Hillary on a pedestal and won't acknowledge any of her issues, which amazes me. I would rather gamble on Trump than risk having Hillary as President, as all conservatives here have expressed.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps this should be on a different thread?

Quote:
However, I believe that not acknowledging the short comings of our candidates is being unfair. I think all conservatives here have clearly expressed our concerns with Trump, and there are many, but we still favor him over Hillary. Most of you on the left hold Hillary on a pedestal and won't acknowledge any of her issues, which amazes me. I would rather gamble on Trump than risk having Hillary as President, as all conservatives here have expressed.


This claim is simply not true. I for one think that Hillary's flaws are dramatically less of a concern than Trump's, including his utter dishonesty. But I refuse to accept criticism of the Clinton's based on a false narrative. I will give two specific examples. Mrgybe accused the Clinton's of using the Clinton Foundation to enrich themselves, and made much of Charity Navigator's suspending their evaluation. Silence when Charity Navigator again rates the Clinton Foundation relatively highly. The claims about them using Foundation funds for travel or to enrich themselves are lies, and are in sharp contrast to Trump using his foundation to pay off lawsuits that he has lost.

But the most significant example is Libya. Libya was Clinton's most serious mistake, and she eventually persuaded Obama to intervene. Our intelligence was not as good as we thought, and our assumptions about the upside of overthrowing dictators, throughout the region, turned out to be naive. Hillary's tendency to see foreign affairs in terms of military approaches, and her failure to take the advice of the military establishment with a sufficiently jaundiced eye are indeed faults. It has, of course, nothing to do with Benghazi--the issue that clueless right wingers obsessed with looking for a smoking gun. Hillary's bellicosity is why I voted for Obama in 2008.

Hillary is also very guarded in public, and like most politicians, overly scripted and interested in message control. This may well cost her the election, but is a trait shared by most of the politicians that I have known. But unlike many of them, Hillary actually has the bandwidth to understand issues at a greater depth than the talking points she favors. A flaw indeed.

The favorite whipping tools of the right--Benghazi, her guarded approach, e-mails, the Clinton Foundation--are indistinguishable from the approaches of Republicans when they were in office--or have you forgotten Bush's staff deleting 2.5 million e-mails, Colin Powell using a private e-mail account and advising Hillary to do the same, and Cheney's secret meetings on energy policy? The problem with the Republicans, and particularly with Trump, is their inability to articulate an alternative approach--from healthcare to foreign policy--and a rationale that would make it persuasive.

In Trump's case, this is accompanied by blatant bigotry and serial dishonesty that is far greater threat to our nation than represented by any presidential candidate of my life.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14839
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
swchandler said:
Quote:
techno900, while we have differed on issues in the past, do you think that I've been unfair or untoward in my comments?

While I disagree with many of your posts, you typically stay out of the gutter, unlike some other posters here, both right and left.

I think being "unfair" means totally ignoring the negatives on your side of the issue, which I think you do from time to time. There are clear differences between what conservatives and liberals believe and want, so trying to move someone from one side of the fence to the other is futile.

However, I believe that not acknowledging the short comings of our candidates is being unfair. I think all conservatives here have clearly expressed our concerns with Trump, and there are many, but we still favor him over Hillary. Most of you on the left hold Hillary on a pedestal and won't acknowledge any of her issues, which amazes me. I would rather gamble on Trump than risk having Hillary as President, as all conservatives here have expressed
.


I believe this addresses the false equivalency clearly


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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14839
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/01/24/beware-russia-trump-trolls/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29

Beware Of Trump Trolls & Fake Supporters — From Russia, D.C., & Elsewhere
January 24th
, 2017 by Zachary Shahan

Quote:
As someone who covered climate science during the Russian-fabricated “climategate” scandal and who has moderated thousands of comment threads over the past 7 or so years (tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of individual comments), I have come to learn a few things about the “democratic web.”

As everyone should know by now, Russia clearly had a hand in electing Donald Trump — a big one — and that was not only in hacking and fake news (though, it’s great those stories got out there and got so much attention). Russia was also very clearly involved in internet astroturfing in countless comment threads. Such astroturfing often comes across as idiotic to humans with their heads screwed on straight, but it is actually highly effective. (If it wasn’t, Russia wouldn’t be spending tens of millions of dollars on this strategy.)

Basically, many of the comments posted on popular media sites and blogs — as well as on sites like Facebook, reddit, and Twitter — are not authentic, real, legit comments. In plenty of cases, they aren’t even from humans. In many more cases, they are from paid “trolls.”

(Quick note to media executives and bloggers: Enabling this astroturfing is counterproductive to your entire professional purpose — it’s a dereliction of duty. I’ll post more comments and suggestions on this matter at the bottom of this article.)

Comments from “concerned Americans” and “environmentalists” often come from people based in other countries (not infrequently, Russia) who are getting some crappy paychecks by pretending to be Americans. Again, in case it seems unlikely or ridiculous, let me emphasize that this “concern trolling” does indeed influence public opinion, sway portions of the electorate, and interfere with our democracy.

Democracy is built on people having access to useful, important information and engaging in politics. Democracy becomes cancerous when it is overrun by fake citizens, disinformation campaigns, foreign (or domestic) propaganda campaigns, and internet astroturfing.

A couple of hours ago, I was scrolling Google News, came across an interesting story on ProPublica about the Trump administration imposing a freeze on EPA grants and contracts, and ventured down into the comments for a quick glance. I was disappointed to see obvious concern trolling and astroturfing that apparently isn’t being adequately addressed by the site moderation team. On the plus side, real commenters are calling it out to some degree, there are some great authentic comments, and the real commenters are getting upvoted more than the trolls. However, there are no doubt actual humans — Americans even — being disinformed and influenced by the astroturfing.

If people in the media or normal readers think this is no big deal, I really, really encourage you to not view this matter so lightly. There’s a reason the KGB and the Trump campaign almost definitely invested (and continue to invest) in this method of persuasion — it works.

The method is utilized when it comes to wind energy stories, solar energy stories, electric vehicle stories, political stories, climate change stories, and I’m sure much more. If you were hoping the Trump-related astroturfing would go away after the election, I’m sorry to say that seems hugely unlikely.

Trump and his top advisors are well aware of how simple comments — published on the web or stated elsewhere — influence public opinion. Trump wants to be viewed as a successful president — probably even much more than he wants to be a successful president. He has a long and well documented history of obsession with his brand and even the slightest negative comments about him. He will try hard to control the story from every angle possible — including concern trolling and astroturfing. So will his Russian allies, who have been focused on this method of public persuasion for years.

We all need to be vigilant if we want to maintain or regain semblances of democracy in the US, in Europe, in Japan, in Korea, and elsewhere. Importantly, we need to be vigilant if we don’t want many of the benefits of the internet to be demolished by a cancer-ravaged fake global democracy. Here are a few final tips for readers and publishers:

Readers: Pay close attention to the history, profile, and patterns of commenters you run across on the web. Additionally, I encourage you to eschew comment threads on sites where moderation is lax. You may think you can get in and out unscathed by the fake commentary, but we are more susceptible to propaganda than we think. However, calling out the trolling for what it is can be helpful, particularly in pushing community moderators to stop enabling such activity, so if you want to take on that dirty work, more power to you.

Publishers: I will steal the advice Joe Romm of Think Progress published years ago — either very carefully moderate your comment threads or don’t allow comments at all. Providing an easy outlet for powerful propaganda machines and disinformation campaigns is an assault on democracy. It is highly irresponsible. Don’t fool yourself into believing the easy way out (letting people post practically anything they want) is the most moral or democratic approach. you are providing the trolls with a feast, and they aren’t leaving much food for our theoretical democracy.

Of course, the challenges with facts and democracy aren’t only with the internet trolls …

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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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