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Wing sail is reality now
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

westender wrote:
From one of your videos I did not see that skill level. I have a problem with your not knowing the conditions in the Gorge. Not a sail for the Gorge.

killogramm wrote:
hmm. I start jibe in full power, when crossing windline I have 0 or little wind. Flip sail, power up and go. No depower.
.
is this forum "who is better sailor"?
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 752

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
such a controversial post....

Controversial? Really? I am being very polite in pointing out that you are calling sails that are regularly used in the upper forties and hold world speed records in excess of 50 knots primitive ...
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 2802

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm,

It's amazing to me when someone like you takes on a project like yours. Most of us out here just sit back and enjoy what sail/board designers have done to make our sport more fun. Not all concepts work, but many do. If yours proves to be a good thing for some windsurfers, great!

A lot of us that have been doing this for many, many years, and will naturally be a bit skeptical, but that's to be expected. My first sail was Dacron with three very short battens, then to full battens, laminated sails, cambers, monofilm, tube battens, then double luff race, etc. Actually, they all still prove to be user friendly and efficient in specific conditions. I think you are really excited about your sail, but just give it some time to evolve before you go overboard with how great it is. Time will tell one way or the other.
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
killogramm,

It's amazing to me when someone like you takes on a project like yours. Most of us out here just sit back and enjoy what sail/board designers have done to make our sport more fun. Not all concepts work, but many do. If yours proves to be a good thing for some windsurfers, great!

A lot of us that have been doing this for many, many years, and will naturally be a bit skeptical, but that's to be expected. My first sail was Dacron with three very short battens, then to full battens, laminated sails, cambers, monofilm, tube battens, then double luff race, etc. Actually, they all still prove to be user friendly and efficient in specific conditions. I think you are really excited about your sail, but just give it some time to evolve before you go overboard with how great it is. Time will tell one way or the other.
absolutely, it will take some time. I just itroduce of what the properties are, and the rest will be filled with customers testimonies and pro review. It will take time, you right!
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leto



Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few friends who bought this sail on the spot riding it for a few times and it speaks for itself. I do tricks and jumps and go into waves so for me this sail may not be perfect but for a great number of people who are into freeride, and speed this sail may be godsend.

I saw a few mentioned that the sail takes in water since it has a lot of volume and sinks. If these people actually used the sail, they would know that the sail stays on the surface no matter what. It's actually impossible to sink it. It all comes to a simple fact whether one used it or not and just guessing. I just gave you an example of one wrong conclusion based on guesswork.

I've probably windsurfed to 12 years and pretty advanced. I love windsurfing and when I think in terms of board design progress and sail design progress, latter hasn't progressed much.

All I want to say is that this sail can be something truly amazing, which potentially can change the design of freeride, race, and slalom sails. Imagine a possibility of owning only one sail for 18-40knots conditions. I think that involving top race sailors giving them some samples or askin to test may be a potential move.
I also think that recording a nice/pro sailing video(s) from a drone can be another nice idea and may convert skeptics into fans.

I would also urge the designer to post on 2 more major windsurfing
forums. One in UK and another in Australia.

http://forums.boards.co.uk
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing

Cheers mates. Let's not be skeptics.
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leto wrote:
I have a few friends who bought this sail on the spot riding it for a few times and it speaks for itself. I do tricks and jumps and go into waves so for me this sail may not be perfect but for a great number of people who are into freeride, and speed this sail may be godsend.

I saw a few mentioned that the sail takes in water since it has a lot of volume and sinks. If these people actually used the sail, they would know that the sail stays on the surface no matter what. It's actually impossible to sink it. It all comes to a simple fact whether one used it or not and just guessing. I just gave you an example of one wrong conclusion based on guesswork.

I've probably windsurfed to 12 years and pretty advanced. I love windsurfing and when I think in terms of board design progress and sail design progress, latter hasn't progressed much.

All I want to say is that this sail can be something truly amazing, which potentially can change the design of freeride, race, and slalom sails. Imagine a possibility of owning only one sail for 18-40knots conditions. I think that involving top race sailors giving them some samples or askin to test may be a potential move.
I also think that recording a nice/pro sailing video(s) from a drone can be another nice idea and may convert skeptics into fans.

I would also urge the designer to post on 2 more major windsurfing
forums. One in UK and another in Australia.

http://forums.boards.co.uk
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing
T
Cheers mates. Let's not be skeptics.
Thank you! Much appreciated !
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 752

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leto wrote:
...

I would also urge the designer to post on 2 more major windsurfing
forums. One in UK and another in Australia.

http://forums.boards.co.uk
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing

Cheers mates. Let's not be skeptics.

He did, pretty much insulting everybody in sight on seabreeze. Among other things refusing to discuss that his 5.8 was actually slower than a 5.0 in a recorded video and GPS track and flat outperformed by a 7.5, down-rating the range of the sails from 18 to 40 knots to 18 to 40 miles per hour, and getting into a diatribe about Patent applications ... the product might be great but unfortunately it is not going very far with such an attitude

By the way, Challenger http://www.challengersails.com/en/ in collaboration with Heru tested and even put in production a wing sail in 2013-2016. They even took a speed version to Luderitz ... apparently it ended up in the trash can. The wing sails are now no longer in production at Challenger. Challanger by the way, is a very reputable sailmaker with PWA wins under its belt, and Heru has being making wing sails for Moth and catamarancs for a while http://herusails.com/ ... maybe this windsurf incarnation of the wing sail is better but it is not that people have not tried it before ...



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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
leto wrote:
...

I would also urge the designer to post on 2 more major windsurfing
forums. One in UK and another in Australia.

http://forums.boards.co.uk
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing

Cheers mates. Let's not be skeptics.

He did, pretty much insulting everybody in sight on seabreeze. Among other things refusing to discuss that his 5.8 was actually slower than a 5.0 in a recorded video and GPS track and flat outperformed by a 7.5, down-rating the range of the sails from 18 to 40 knots to 18 to 40 miles per hour, and getting into a diatribe about Patent applications ... the product might be great but unfortunately it is not going very far with such an attitude

By the way, Challenger http://www.challengersails.com/en/ in collaboration with Heru tested and even put in production a wing sail in 2013-2016. They even took a speed version to Luderitz ... apparently it ended up in the trash can. The wing sails are now no longer in production at Challenger. Challanger by the way, is a very reputable sailmaker with PWA wins under its belt, and Heru has being making wing sails for Moth and catamarancs for a while http://herusails.com/ ... maybe this windsurf incarnation of the wing sail is better but it is not that people have not tried it before ...
The sail that you show us is nothing but sail with big pocket. It has very small advantage but overcompensated with pressure drag. I know all the story about heru sails from early start. I can be more specific about that product but I afraid that technical language is sound insulting to you. Isn't it dude?
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 752

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
The sail that you show us is nothing but sail with big pocket. It has very small advantage but overcompensated with pressure drag. I know all the story about heru sails from early start. I can be more specific about that product but I afraid that technical language is sound insulting to you. Isn't it dude?


there you go ... Challenger and Heru join the collection of sailmakers who don't know what they are doing ... Rolling Eyes

At least their sail was somewhat competitive against a regular race sail. The 6.0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUuyKDP2xWo and 7.8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBKoG_RbVFw and 8.4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaJp_iA7ubI&t=105s
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3621

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said...seen it, no real world advantage, good theory, good for intermediates who delve into windsurfing, and pure theorist. Just a headache for windsurfers.
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