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WindSUP Sails
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think there's merit to both sides of "that issue".

Back to ittiandro - he (190 lbs) will have more power in 10 knot wind, using a 9.5 to 10 m sail on his 215L Bic Windsup... than he will with a 8m sail.
More power is VERY nice when you just want to get out on the water and cruise around sub-planing (gliding) and... to be "able to lean back" in your harness!!
With a 8m sail in that wind, he won't be leaning back in his harness, cause there won't be enough power to support him.

And he WILL be gliding around faster, with the bigger sail.

The 11'6" Bic Windsup he has, does not have a lot of rocker... certainly no more than a Kona One (which is kinda flat-ish in the back 2/3, but has quite a bit of nose rocker).
Therefore when he gets going faster, he will be planing.
Anyway, he and I don't care all that much about planing... we are ok with just getting out sailing. And he will glide faster... and be able to lean back in his harness more (which is fun, and greatly increases your sailing time)... with a 9.5-ish sail (compared to his Cool.

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa wrote:
^+1
why did kitesurfing get so popular so quickly ??
easier and transportable
let's make learning easier and move towards transportable
(or have more decent rent centres - i would rent foil setup)


Joe, you were't involved in windsurfing back then... so there's no way you could appreciate the scope of this. But kitesurfing's popularity has been NOTHING like windsurfing's popularity. Kitesurfing popularity and growth is tiny in comparison to the impact that windsurfing had from '80 to '95.
Kitesurfing "seems" big cause we have youtube now with any movie we want to watch, on a phone in our back pocket.
But comparing windsurf sales to kitesurf sales, from the two growth periods, it's not even close. Comparing how many people (millions of them) bought racks for little cars to carry longboards on the roof... compared to how many people are carrying around kite gear, is tiny. Comparing the mainstream media coverage that windsurfing got, to the coverage kiting gets... is a huge difference. Back then, every city had a shop (or several) that sold windsurfers, it's not that way with kiting.
And windsurfing did it all, without direct marketing to people with flashy videos on smart phones.
Anyway, you probably know some of this... cause you're becoming a good student of the sport.
But for newer people reading these posts, it's not accurate to imply the only reason "kiting got so popular so quickly" is the reasons you state. The main reason it became popular with many people, was, it "was the new thing".
Kiting popularity is declining, and or, slowing. More later about all this Smile

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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 949
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry i mentioned kiting
was just trying to make the point that NOT everyone has an easy time on a narrower board (70 cm and down)
and that can be a slight deterrent
and newbee MAY go over to kiting
just wish we could all go WELL on waters this flat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5qGepym5AA
over and out Smile
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ittiandro - you've asked several times in different threads about the Aerotech 5.6m Windsup sail. And one of the guys wrote a good answer to you, about that sail.

To add a bit more context -
That Aerotech Windsup sail is an AWESOME invention by Steve G!!
It's a modern adaptation of the popular windsurf sails of the 80's, with big advantages. It's super quick to set up, and very light, and provides good power (relative to it's small size)... it works great for teaching novices in light wind.
I've used them for teaching and have free-sailed them a little. And they would be a great, easy to use sail, for gliding around on any longboard or windsup.

Here's some basic, over-simplified info regarding sail design that might help newer sailors.
To me, most all typical windsurfing sails, have had about a 10 mph wind speed range, of good practical use. Experts can use sails in maybe a 20 mph wind range, but they're not very efficient at the upper and lower limits. And novices are way happier staying within a 5 mph window of perfect and easily efficient range.
Next. All 5.6m sails are not created equal... same with 4m, 7m, 9.5m, etc.
In the 80's and 90's sail designs were more fully shaped, had deeper drafts, tighter leeches, less twisty at the head (or top) of the sail.
In the 2000's sail designs evolved to handle a higher wind speed, from the same given size. I mean they finally got the twist, etc. correct... so that a 10m sail could be used in 20 mph wind. And that was amazing, cause a 90's sail that was 10m could only be used in 10 mph.
HOWEVER - That "high wind 10m sail" was not so good in light wind. Why? Because to make a 10m sail work well in 20 mph wind by an expert, it had to be very stiff and stable in the lower section, and had to twist off in the higher section. These sails are heavy... take a ton of downhaul... can be tedious to adjust and rig, etc. But they don't work as well as a good 10m sail from the 90's (or a modern raceboard sail) in light wind.
For gliding fast in light wind (12 knots and under) you want a light weight sail, that makes power all the way up (no floppy head).

Back to the question about the Aerotech 5.6 Windsup sail. When someone says, "this 5.6 will really get your longboard going"... everyone should know, this is marketing. I mean, they are not giving the complete story! The smart shopper should ask more questions, like "what do you mean, with that statement?"

The truth is this - Many people have used small, high wind sails, to teach their friends in light winds... or to power around their new windsup. But these sails are gutless in light wind!! It's because these sails need high wind to fill them out into a powerful shape... and they work great for that. Most 5.6 sails designed since 1999 are like this. Therefore they make almost no power in 10 mph wind, to cruise around on your windsup. HOWEVER a Aerotech 5.6 windsup is closer to teaching sails... in that, it is designed to work well in light wind (similar to 80's and 90's sails).

Conclusion - For someone that only has lots of experience with high wind 5.6 sails in the last 17 years... someone who wants to use his nice high wind 2009 5.6 sail on his new windsup in 10 mph breezes... he will be disappointed. Because the Aerotech Windsup 5.6 will really get him going a lot better (cause it's lighter, deeper shaped, softer and easier breathing, and make power all the way up, with minimal head twist)!!
So if you want a modern, light weight, easy to use 5.6 sail for light wind cruising on your longboard, teaching friends, longboard freestyle, etc. Buy this set-up, it's really cool... and so fast to set up Smile
But ... will a 5.6 windsup sail get you going better than an 8m sail (from any era)? No... it won't.

Here's another fact... a 1993 8.2m - 4 cam race sail is way faster in light wind (2 - 12 knots) longboarding. Than a 2013 8.2m - 4 cam race sail in the same wind with the same board.
And the old 8.2 is way lighter, and way faster and easier to rig. Both sails have the same luff sleeve width, and cam zippers. The old sail has way less luff curve and you can downhaul it with one hand (no crank needed). The old sail will beat the new sail around a race course in light wind on a longboard (windsup, whatever). The new sail will beat the old sail in 20 mph wind, racing a slalom board.

So there's some over-simplified info about sail designs... that might help newer sailors pick sails for windsups, longboards, light winds, etc.

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 8756

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But the poster isn't a beginner, he's been doing this a couple of years and wants some sub-planing performance."


You brought up a good point, and I think that it also makes the point in my last post. As joethewindsufa pointed out, ittiandro just can't feel comfortable with a 65-70cm wide longboard most likely because of the crutch of sorts that current wider boards offer him. If he could overcome the tippy nature of narrower longboard designs, he would go a long way in achieving the kind performance that he's looking for, arguably with a smaller sail too.

coachg, do you actually believe that very wide boards make for better windsurfers today? Forget about bare beginners for a moment. From what I have been able to glean over time here on the iwindsurf forums is that dependency on wide high volume boards greatly stunts progression in many ways, particularly learning to waterstart. It's hard for me to believe how long it takes some folks to move from uphauling to waterstarting. If they can continue uphauling on a barge of a board, why move out of your comfort zone and get frustrated by learning to waterstart?
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa wrote:
sorry i mentioned kiting
was just trying to make the point that NOT everyone has an easy time on a narrower board (70 cm and down)
and that can be a slight deterrent
and newbee MAY go over to kiting
over and out Smile


Yes like I said, there's 2 schools of thought on this, and I think both sides have merit. You will certainly have veterans fully agree with you. But I lean a bit more towards the other veterans who said "almost anyone can learn to windsurf on a 70cm board. A 240L board has just as much float, whether it's 68 cm wide or 88cm wide, you just have to put your feet in the right place. Lighter folks, can learn on even narrower boards.
The "key for success" is the right instruction, during the right weather conditions. And if it's not ideal, than the person needs to be REALLY motivated.

For people not motivated enough, and or, poor instruction / poor conditions... "those people" will NOT learn kiting either. Which is why kiting is plateau-ing, or declining in certain areas.

Good and experienced experts will make any kind of windsurfing or kiting look easy. But it is NOT. We are all lured into fun playtime on the water with the wind. But those people making, beautiful, graceful, fun-looking vids... have paid their dues. They have grit and have put forth BIG effort, to get where they are!
There are no short-cuts.

Yesterday, I was teaching some deep powder tree skiing on moderately steep (black diamond) slopes. People said, "you make it look so easy". I said, "it's not. But it is many years of deliberate and purposeful training and practice".

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Last edited by gregnw44 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
"But the poster isn't a beginner, he's been doing this a couple of years and wants some sub-planing performance."


You brought up a good point, and I think that it also makes the point in my last post. As joethewindsufa pointed out, ittiandro just can't feel comfortable with a 65-70cm wide longboard most likely because of the crutch of sorts that current wider boards offer him. If he could overcome the tippy nature of narrower longboard designs, he would go a long way in achieving the kind performance that he's looking for, arguably with a smaller sail too.

coachg, do you actually believe that very wide boards make for better windsurfers today? Forget about bare beginners for a moment. From what I have been able to glean over time here on the iwindsurf forums is that dependency on wide high volume boards greatly stunts progression in many ways, particularly learning to waterstart. It's hard for me to believe how long it takes some folks to move from uphauling to waterstarting. If they can continue uphauling on a barge of a board, why move out of your comfort zone and get frustrated by learning to waterstart?


This is precisely my point. Staying on a "comfortable" board isn't how you progress when you don't have conditions that will do yhe pushing for you.

I'm new to this (18 months or so). I started on an 80cm shortboard then bought a 70cm longboard. I was never "comfortable" when I first got on those boards, I spent a whole lot of time falling off of them. Now I have other boards I fall off of regularly.

Really learning something requires you to abandon comfort and in this case accept that windsurfing is actually a water sport where you get wet.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2527

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying not to take this thread off topic thus the short posts on your nostalgia. But now Swchandler is dragging me in.

Yes, I do believe that very wide boards make for better windsurfers today. Equipment & instruction is far better than it was back in the 80's and the learning curve is much quicker because of it. A good instructor will start a student off on a super wide board until the student demonstrates and understanding of how the sail & wind work in relationship to power & steering. At that point the instructor will transition the student to a narrower, smaller board. Some times that occurs after 5 or 10 minutes, some times that takes 1 to 2 days. Not everyone learns at the same rate but with proper instruction they will be put on proper equipment for the conditions and they will progress.

You glean your information from the Iwindsurf forum, I glean my information from teaching at locations from O'Neal fore bay to Hood River so obviously our perspectives are different. That is a given.

I do find it rather ironic that you, a proponent of self-learning would find it hard to believe how long it takes some folks to progress when self learning. Slow improvement, possibly learning poor technique or trying to utilize improper equipment are byproducts of self-learning. Not seeing or knowing the student or sailing conditions adds to the difficulty of getting information through the forum.

If you want to progress faster, get good instruction. I'll shamelessly pump ABK here. It will not lesson your feeling of accomplishment. If you want the satisfaction of learning on your own don't get frustrated if it takes you longer.


Coachg
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 8756

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg,

Although we're both Californians, our windsurfing environments are so different, and that's maybe why we see things differently.

As a coastal guy, I know you have to be pretty dedicated, especially without all the professional instruction available here (which is zero). Windsurfing is about pushing the margins, being dedicated, and always on it.

After as many years that I've been at it, I think that we can all reflect back on those that once windsurfed, and I'm not even talking about the folks that moved over to kiting.
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