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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | MalibuGuru wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | isobars wrote: | The solution to having to separate children from their law-breaking parents -- whether they're illegal aliens sneaking across our borders or 16th-generation U.S. citizens stealing a car in Kansas -- is SO simple: Don't commit an offense involving incarceration if you have children.
And sure as HELL don't try to use the kids as human shields when committing such violations. That fools no one except fools.
And why is the Left more concerned about illegal aliens' rights and welfare than the rights and welfare of its own citizens in comparable plight? What has the government done for the children living in blight-stricken inner cities and/or attending nurseries disguised as public schools? |
Hey isobars. I hope you're getting some water time in.
I don't know that the left is more concerned about the plight of refugee children than citizen children. As you are aware, the problems with the educational opportunities of inner city kids is a completely different issue.
I see both sides of this discussion, to some extent. But, I just can't agree with a policy that punishes children for their parent's sins. I agree with SWC. The problem of the illegal immigration for those seeking a better life in the US is because we have an element of our business community that provides work for these folks.
Those seeking refuge from dangerous regimes and seeking asylu m is an entirely different manner. Why is the right lumping them together?
My Great Grandparents came from the Ukraine and Ireland. They were facing starvation. It was easy to legally immigrate back then. What is becoming of our country when we close doors to these humans?
None of my construction associates can find workers. Nursing homes cannot keep up with the labor demands and find workers. Our agricultural industry needs workers.
There is some math that works here. We need to set aside our prejudices and do that math. |
We have the work force here already but they choose to live on entitlements instead. |
Really? Show me the numbers to back that up. How many able bodied men out there that can climb around on twenty foot high concrete forms are living on entitlements? Or, are you just making this up? |
They get paid cash as undocumented and accept food stamps, housing subsidies, and free health care....on us.
Many live better than Americans |
This makes SWC's point. Who's paying illegal
Immigrants cash? Who's taking advantage of a system that provides ER services to anyone? Who's reaping the benefits of the subsidized housing?
It's the businesses that hire them. Enforce the laws on the books regarding payroll taxes...go after these guys and require them to pay minimum wage and payroll taxes.
Most of the Mexicans I chat with on job sites are paying payroll taxes. Most have no interest in retiring in the US. They take their low wages, pay their taxes and don't go on entitlements.
I sometimes wonder if our fear of the Mexicans...which is at the heart of the immigration debate is less about jobs and more about the "browning" of America.
Traveling in Texas a month or so back, this is exactly what a Trump bumper stickered redneck told me. I think this sentiment drives a lot of the emotion around this issue. |
That's it "the browning of America"?????? Come on Cobo you're better than that.....you do know that Malibu has Latinos in his family, I also have a Haitian American in my extended family who has been to my home dozens of times. |
I didn't say anything about either one of you Matty. But, I did just spend a month in Texas. And, if you don't believe that there is a fear that white privalege is being diluted by immigration from Mexico, you are kidding yourself.
Trump plays to this audience and it works. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | isobars wrote: | The solution to having to separate children from their law-breaking parents -- whether they're illegal aliens sneaking across our borders or 16th-generation U.S. citizens stealing a car in Kansas -- is SO simple: Don't commit an offense involving incarceration if you have children.
And sure as HELL don't try to use the kids as human shields when committing such violations. That fools no one except fools.
And why is the Left more concerned about illegal aliens' rights and welfare than the rights and welfare of its own citizens in comparable plight? What has the government done for the children living in blight-stricken inner cities and/or attending nurseries disguised as public schools? |
Hey isobars. I hope you're getting some water time in.
I don't know that the left is more concerned about the plight of refugee children than citizen children. As you are aware, the problems with the educational opportunities of inner city kids is a completely different issue.
I see both sides of this discussion, to some extent. But, I just can't agree with a policy that punishes children for their parent's sins. I agree with SWC. The problem of the illegal immigration for those seeking a better life in the US is because we have an element of our business community that provides work for these folks.
Those seeking refuge from dangerous regimes and seeking asylu m is an entirely different manner. Why is the right lumping them together?
My Great Grandparents came from the Ukraine and Ireland. They were facing starvation. It was easy to legally immigrate back then. What is becoming of our country when we close doors to these humans?
None of my construction associates can find workers. Nursing homes cannot keep up with the labor demands and find workers. Our agricultural industry needs workers.
There is some math that works here. We need to set aside our prejudices and do that math. |
We have the work force here already but they choose to live on entitlements instead. |
Really? Show me the numbers to back that up. How many able bodied men out there that can climb around on twenty foot high concrete forms are living on entitlements? Or, are you just making this up? |
Illegals come in, displace our low income work force and they end up on entitlements...Not sure how you could deny what is so obvious.
https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ |
Of course there MAY be some of this although you haven't offered any proof of this or its scale. Disability is a complex issue. It is true that our economy has left many behind and this is an audience that Trump played to and won. But, the issue is way more complicated than jobs being taken by "illegals".
Again. Don't allow anyone to hire undocumented workers and doesn't your argument disappear anyway without a wall? |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Lots of ideas and solutions, but why hasn't Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama or Trump been able to make anything work? At least Trump is trying something different, even though it's generating significant turmoil.
I don't disagree with holding business that hire illegals accountable, but no President has made the effort. So why is that? I can't imagine that companies that hire illegals have much of a lobbying arm.
Clearly, something has to happen, popular or not, to gain control. Apparently congress is working hard on a bill to address the family separation issue, but it includes funding for the wall.
Is the wall a practical idea? Probably not, so what's the answer (something that congress will buy into)? How many millions of additional immigrants will it take before there is a really BIG crisis? Is there a limit on how many can be successfully assimilated into our country? For those that think economic class separation is a big issue, it's just beginning. Not that "Dreamers" won't be successful, but that's just a drop in the bucket.
Lots of questions, but apparently no easy answers. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Techno
I believe Matty has somewhat of a point although he casts the blame in the wrong place...against "illegals"...whatever that means.
There are severalissues here and Trump is trying to confuse the them. One is legal immigration and the fear that these people will take Anerican jobs. And, this has been promoted by Trump when it involves white collar jobs (think Pakistani immigrants in medicine and tech). Yet Trump also promises to not allow immigrants to take American jobs from his base. He is, simply, using immigration as a political tool.
Another issue is illegal immigration. Sectors of our economy want these people for jobs at pay rates no citizen will work for. Then we blame the immigrant.
Then we have refuges from dangerous environments. How do we deal with a world where many cannot find sanctuary for their children? Simply saying no denies our heritage. Can we take them all?
I know the answer us not to separate children from parents at our borders. |
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wsurfer
Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1635
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | isobars wrote: | The solution to having to separate children from their law-breaking parents -- whether they're illegal aliens sneaking across our borders or 16th-generation U.S. citizens stealing a car in Kansas -- is SO simple: Don't commit an offense involving incarceration if you have children.
And sure as HELL don't try to use the kids as human shields when committing such violations. That fools no one except fools.
And why is the Left more concerned about illegal aliens' rights and welfare than the rights and welfare of its own citizens in comparable plight? What has the government done for the children living in blight-stricken inner cities and/or attending nurseries disguised as public schools? |
Hey isobars. I hope you're getting some water time in.
I don't know that the left is more concerned about the plight of refugee children than citizen children. As you are aware, the problems with the educational opportunities of inner city kids is a completely different issue.
I see both sides of this discussion, to some extent. But, I just can't agree with a policy that punishes children for their parent's sins. I agree with SWC. The problem of the illegal immigration for those seeking a better life in the US is because we have an element of our business community that provides work for these folks.
Those seeking refuge from dangerous regimes and seeking asylu m is an entirely different manner. Why is the right lumping them together?
My Great Grandparents came from the Ukraine and Ireland. They were facing starvation. It was easy to legally immigrate back then. What is becoming of our country when we close doors to these humans?
None of my construction associates can find workers. Nursing homes cannot keep up with the labor demands and find workers. Our agricultural industry needs workers.
There is some math that works here. We need to set aside our prejudices and do that math. |
We have the work force here already but they choose to live on entitlements instead. |
Really? Show me the numbers to back that up. How many able bodied men out there that can climb around on twenty foot high concrete forms are living on entitlements? Or, are you just making this up? |
Illegals come in, displace our low income work force and they end up on entitlements...Not sure how you could deny what is so obvious.
https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ |
Didn't really glean that from the article, it's more like whole mills and factories shutting down causing the problem. |
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boggsman1
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by boggsman1 on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: |
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coboardhead said: | Quote: | | Then we have refuges from dangerous environments. How do we deal with a world where many cannot find sanctuary for their children? Simply saying no denies our heritage. Can we take them all? |
Fine but is there a point where you say no? It seems that Europe is reconsidering their sanctuary efforts. Why do the Central American sanctuary immigrants just pass through Mexico and not seek refuge there?
The US has always tried to be the "nice guy" of the world, but the frequent result is that we get taken advantage of way too often. |
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vientomas
Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2343
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | | I don't disagree with holding business that hire illegals accountable, but no President has made the effort. So why is that? I can't imagine that companies that hire illegals have much of a lobbying arm. |
You're F'ing joking? Right?
According to lobbying reports that are required to be
filed with the House Office of the Clerk and the Senate
Office of Public Records, 521 corporations, trade
associations, business groups, labor organizations, government
entities, and nonprofit organizations engaged
in lobbying on one or more pieces of the immigrationrelated
legislation included in this report.1 Only 2 percent
of these organizations are known to have
promoted positions in favor of enforcement of existing
immigration laws, limiting the influx of foreign guest
workers, and reducing overall levels of immigration.
https://www.fairus.org/sites/default/files/2017-08/fair_lobbying_report.pdf?docID=2421 |
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boggsman1
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Techno... to give you an idea of the power of the business community, and their ability to influence politicians, take a look at Arizona. Arizona is probably the toughest state on immigrants. They passed a law making it legal to raid businesses, and profile workers. But, it never saw the light of day after the lobbying effort overwhelmed the courts...Immigration is good for business. HB-1 VISA's are critical in Silicon Valley, and migrant workers are critical in CA, where a massive percentage of all the fruits and vegetables are grown... |
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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | mat-ty wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | isobars wrote: | The solution to having to separate children from their law-breaking parents -- whether they're illegal aliens sneaking across our borders or 16th-generation U.S. citizens stealing a car in Kansas -- is SO simple: Don't commit an offense involving incarceration if you have children.
And sure as HELL don't try to use the kids as human shields when committing such violations. That fools no one except fools.
And why is the Left more concerned about illegal aliens' rights and welfare than the rights and welfare of its own citizens in comparable plight? What has the government done for the children living in blight-stricken inner cities and/or attending nurseries disguised as public schools? |
Hey isobars. I hope you're getting some water time in.
I don't know that the left is more concerned about the plight of refugee children than citizen children. As you are aware, the problems with the educational opportunities of inner city kids is a completely different issue.
I see both sides of this discussion, to some extent. But, I just can't agree with a policy that punishes children for their parent's sins. I agree with SWC. The problem of the illegal immigration for those seeking a better life in the US is because we have an element of our business community that provides work for these folks.
Those seeking refuge from dangerous regimes and seeking asylu m is an entirely different manner. Why is the right lumping them together?
My Great Grandparents came from the Ukraine and Ireland. They were facing starvation. It was easy to legally immigrate back then. What is becoming of our country when we close doors to these humans?
None of my construction associates can find workers. Nursing homes cannot keep up with the labor demands and find workers. Our agricultural industry needs workers.
There is some math that works here. We need to set aside our prejudices and do that math. |
We have the work force here already but they choose to live on entitlements instead. |
Really? Show me the numbers to back that up. How many able bodied men out there that can climb around on twenty foot high concrete forms are living on entitlements? Or, are you just making this up? |
Illegals come in, displace our low income work force and they end up on entitlements...Not sure how you could deny what is so obvious.
https://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ |
Of course there MAY be some of this although you haven't offered any proof of this or its scale. Disability is a complex issue. It is true that our economy has left many behind and this is an audience that Trump played to and won. But, the issue is way more complicated than jobs being taken by "illegals".
Again. Don't allow anyone to hire undocumented workers and doesn't your argument disappear anyway without a wall? |
I have agreed before , enforce the law and we wouldn't need a wall. We also need to stop incentives like Drivers licenses and sanctuary cities that send a conflicting message . |
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