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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daviddk wrote:
1. You've never seen anyone else do a no handed sail flip?

2. Why then, if you are the only windsurfer capable of doing this mystical move, do you try to teach mere mortals how to do it?


1. That's what I said, and I don't wittingly misstate anything.

2. "Capable"? "Mystical"? "Mortals"? I'm proof that any near-jiber is capable of it, there's nothing mystical about it, it was the only way I could get past the overcomplicated Irish jig step footwork, I didn't have much access to the flat water we see in the jibing videos, and it escalated this mortal's (and many others', according to them) jibing success rate and fun factor dramatically. Just as I CHOOSE not to race or do tricks, many others CHOOSE to jibe sequentially and manhandle their rigs even when it leads them to a stall or confines their jibes to flat patches of water.

I envy the people who can consistently blaze through sequential step jibes at full speed; I'm very seldom good enough to do that, largely since any non-fixed object interfering with my field of view -- from a sail in a jibe to trying to look at my mail as I walk back from the mailbox -- leaves my head reeling. If I look at the rippling water in which I'm walking towards shore rather than at the fixed landscape beyond it, over I go. Ditto when another gym patron walks through my field of vision when I'm doing balance exercises. Yet for decades I could consistently rip off jibes my way. In fact, I usually get flat lost in space when I try these long, drawn-out, rig-handling, sequential jibes, especially when they lead to stalls.

Besides, I flat LIKE the dynamics and versatility of faster/tighter jibes.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 946

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I wanted to learn slam gybes I'd have asked for it.

This is about carve gybes. I'll post an update video in another thread later, this one's in the crapper.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
If I wanted to learn slam gybes I'd have asked for it.

This is about carve gybes. I'll post an update video in another thread later, this one's in the crapper.

I'm surprised you fell for their fabrications. Given good entry speed and power, mine are 100% carves ... no slams, snaps, or anything of the sort. I simply waste less time at it. You're being hornswaggled by people afraid to think outside the box who have never been within 1,000 miles of my sailing.
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daviddk



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with trying to have a discussion with a delusional narcissist is that being a delusional narcissist it is impossible for them to fathom the concept that they are a delusional narcissist. Herein lies the problem.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidduke (tell us you're not trolling with that moniker) wrote:
The problem with trying to have a discussion with a delusional narcissist is that being a delusional narcissist it is impossible for them to fathom the concept that they are a delusional narcissist. Herein lies the problem.


Looks like grantmac017 was right when he wrote:
this one's in the crapper.
... thanks to a handful of people afraid to progress.

coachg wrote:
I'm a visual learner so trying to visualize the jibe Iso is describing I always come up with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2z3yeM5vnc
The OP is trying to learn the step jibe & Iso's is advising him to do the Iso/slam jibe. We would be in the exact same problem if the OP was trying to learn a Duck jibe & Iso was giving him advice on how to Iso/slam jibe.

Either a) you're joking, b) you can't read, c) I can't write, or d) you're trolling. There is zero resemblance between that snap jibe and my carving jibes. Characterizing mine as snap/slam jibes is outright dishonest, and some gullible lurkers might even believe you. You also conveniently omitted the OP's "Is it worth trying a different approach ...?".

Jeez ... what's so dang tough to understand about these four basic principles? And why are you guys so afraid of them?
1. Manhandling the rig is unnecessary in an ordinary jibe.
2. Step jibe footwork is complex, unnecessary overkill that stymied many of us for years.
3. Sailing downwind for several seconds is a CHOICE, not a mandate, and has several downsides in chop. Git ‘er DONE, fercrapssakes!
4. Modifying each of those processes saves time, space, chop impacts, and speed by itself. Doing all three virtually simultaneously saves even more -- usually MUCH more -- time, space, chop impacts, and speed compared to doing one, then the next, and finally the next. It's also still a frigging hoot even after a hundred thousand of them.

The step jibe's primary purpose is getting our weight forward so we don't sink the tail or stall as we lose speed while sailing a hundred feet downwind. The unweighted simultaneous foot switch, OTOH, lets us CHOOSE real time/every time just where our feet need to come to rest, without all the freaking footwork. This eliminates 3 or 4 unnecessary steps and weight transfers from the textbook step jibe. My much more versatile approach plants and weights each foot where appropriate for each individual jibe radius, speed, direction, power level, terrain, gustiness, board shape and volume, and more.

One might even conclude that many of you are afraid to progress beyond the sequential, canned, barn door, step/step/step/step/step jibe that held many of us up for years before we moved on to a quicker, more efficient, and more versatile jibe that got us over a hump. No WONDER you guys think shortboard tacks are the best way to get upwind.

I'm guessing you guys didn't even begin closing the gap until Robby told you to in a WS mag >30 years ago. Free thinkers were WAY ahead of that article, and of his subsequent article on skipping the bearing off phase when carving jibes in plety of wind.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to wonder why Gorge locals who see and sail with isobars all the time never seem to come to the forefront here and validate his phenomenal jibing performance and expertise, especially given the fact that he is in his mid-70s.
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daviddk



Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

One might even conclude that many of you are afraid to progress .... No WONDER you guys think shortboard tacks are the best way to get upwind.


"Afraid to progress ", coming from someone who has been sailing the same way for 30 years. Can't surf swell, surf waves, tack.... just mow that same old lawn, never try anything outside the comfort zone. Yawn. Your delusion of grandeur must come from only sailing with beginners who think a jibe is the pinnacle of windsurfing.

I found this online. The good news is that there is a drug for it. Obamacare should cover it.

Delusion of Grandeur
By John M. Grohol, Psy.D.
Delusion of Grandeur A delusion of grandeur is the fixed, false belief that one possesses superior qualities such as genius, fame, omnipotence, or wealth. It is most often a symptom of schizophrenia, but can also be a symptom found in psychotic or bipolar disorders, as well as dementia (such as Alzheimer’s).

People with a delusion of grandeur often have the conviction of having some great but unrecognized talent or insight. They may also believe they have made some important discovery that others don’t understand or appreciate.

Sometimes, in popular language, this disorder may be known as “megalomania,” but is more accurately referred to as narcissistic personality disorder if it is a core component of a person’s personality and identity. In such disorders, the person has a greatly out-of-proportion sense of their own worth and value in the world.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is c). I, like 65% of the population am a visual learner. Are you really so ignorant that you can't believe most learners need examples, illustrations & not just words to visualize what they are trying to learn? I would hope that your surgeon didn't just read a text book & start cutting.

You don't really have to respond to the previous question as the answer is obvious.

There are two sides to every coin & I'm glad grantmac017 didn't fall for your fabrications or get hornswaggled by you. Actually, he did take your advice on choice; he chose not to listen to you so. Why are you now so upset that he made his choice?

Coachg
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere there has to be a video of Iso or of someone that is doing the same or similar jibe. A picture here is worth more than a 1000 words.

From my previous post:
Quote:
Take a look at this jibe - Starts at 53 seconds. It's strap to strap (type) jibe, meaning that the sail is flipped before the feet switch. I do this well on starboard tack, but can't get very often on port.

The sail flip can be pretty fast, faster than this guy and this one is about a second+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwfZB4CQ3hw


I posted this because it seemed to be similar to what Iso describes. If this isn't similar, then let's see one that is. It also shows that the sail flip can be in one second.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
The sail flip can be pretty fast, faster than this guy and this one is about a second+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwfZB4CQ3hw

I posted this because it seemed to be similar to what Iso describes. If this isn't similar, then let's see one that is. It also shows that the sail flip can be in one second.

The only sail jibe in that video even approaching mine is his very last one. Even then, he jibes the sail around the mast more than around its own self-determined vertical center. It's never allowed to float freely and seek its own spin axis like it would if he let it spin the full distance from starboard to port before re-establishing contact with it. THAT'S when it does as I describe and floats freely in the air right where we want it for the exit broad reach. There's no NEED, let alone hurry, to grab the new boom side with the mast hand separately. I release both hands almost literally simultaneously ... within much less than a second ... and don't touch it again until the new side of the boom is precisely where it needs to be for my exit broad reach. At that point and instant I simply grab the boom with both hands right where they should be in my exit reach; no adjustment required. When my hands hit the boom, I'm sheeted in and accelerating on the exit reach with no perceivable loss of speed. If I CHOOSE to swerve to windward at that point, I can cross my own incoming wake LONG before most recreational jibers even get both hands back on their booms following their barn door, stall or near-stall turns.

Also note that he jibes his feet after he jibes his sail. That's his CHOICE, and it's often mine on flatter water, but the nastier and bigger the chop and/or or the tighter and faster I'm trying to jibe, the sooner I want to complete the whole jibe. That obviously favors switching both feet WHILE, not AFTER, the sail is spinning, so we can hook and strap in much sooner.

As I've often said, those describe the ideal execution of my jibe. I've explained many times why my percentage has dropped from 90% to something like 10% recently.

Note his comment that we need to move our back hand way back to get leverage to oversheet. I've stated for years (decades?) that if I need more leverage, it's because I waited too long to oversheet. My tutorial explains three simple, effortless preventions and cures for that.


Last edited by isobars on Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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