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Mast sizes
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ss59



Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not a racer, more of a wave sailor, so I'll at best I'll get all the terminology wrong.

To my logic, sailing slower results in pointing higher due to the reduced effect of apparent wind - which may also mean the bigger sail is actually a disadvantage as it creates more sidewards drift at slow speeds?? Which may mean a smaller sail may actually point closer to the wind.

Does this then also mean sailing faster, but at a less high angle to the wind is actually probably better at covering distance upwind (velocity made good???? and different to purely pointing higher) - can't work out how to corresponds to sail size though.

I also thought that proportionally huge rigs were used in racing (slalom / FW) to give the grunt coming out of the gybes as dropping off the plane would mean losing - but i'm probably wrong on that too.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2741

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In FW the start can be very crowded, 20-30 sailors at the start creates a lot of dirty air. In slalom you can get from one to two dozen sailors jibing at a mark also creating dirty air. You would be surprised how much dirty air is created, forcing you to rig much bigger than you would if you were free-sailing.

Coachg
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote - 'Bigger sail a disadvantage as it creates more sideways drift at slow speeds.' That's certainly true on some boards, where it feels out of proportion and more hindrance than help, in lighter sub planing winds.

For example, trying different sizes on my old Bic Techno 160 (earlier non
centreboard type) which is very much in the 'awkward' category as regards forcing upwind while sub planing, proved that point. A light and flicky 7 metre non cammed sail gave the board the best assistance, as against a bigger 8 metre sail which simply seemed to push the board deeper, slowing it (more drag) and slipping it sideways more.

Also, there can simply be a mismatch in board and sail type which doesn't help. For example, I tried a modern North Session 6 metre sail which is designed to pull from higher and further forward, on a 112 litre freeride board, which didn't like it one little bit when just shlogging, and trying to burst up onto a plane. (The higher pitched driving force simply pushed the nose down, and standing back seemed to create even more drag, stopping the board from lifting to a plane.)

I've learnt the hard way that sail and board match is not always as you might suppose!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact (on a bit of a rant) I'm fed up with all these sails with built in downhaul pulley systems, instead of a simple cringle! Who the blazes (apart from promenade posers) wants to waste their life away sitting in the car park, laboriously threading sticky ropes through the narrow gaps of multiple extension and sail pulleys, when all they need is an extension already threaded with a hook, to slot into a sail cringle? All my extensions are such, and ready to go!

As it now is, every new sail I buy means drilling out the pulley bar to remove them, and substituting a cut and threaded at each end (for lock nuts) bar with a couple of fitted spacers to centralize the pull of the slot in hook. It really annoys me!!! (I now have a big tin full of new shiny pulleys and can't for the life of me think what to do with them. Though I must admit they do look very nice. Rolling Eyes )

And another thing. Do sail makers really need to make their sail luff sizes so far out of kilter with available mast lengths? My 6.0 North Session sail needs a 400 mast with at least 28 cm extension. (32cm now, to allow for the hook extra height.) Couldn't they simply have made it a few centimetres longer in the luff, to take a 430 mast? Are they seriously claiming such a thing would completely destroy the handling? I would have though that having to stuff such a long rigid (alloy not carbon) extension up the base of the mast would have affected the curve far more, hardly producing an even bend shape.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2239
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings GT,

Maybe while testing the prototype for the sail the designers found it didn't
really want an even bend, but more of a ridged bottom.

Just my tuppence.

Hope you health is good!

-Craig

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
And another thing. Do sail makers really need to make their sail luff sizes so far out of kilter with available mast lengths? My 6.0 North Session sail needs a 400 mast with at least 28 cm extension. (32cm now, to allow for the hook extra height.) Couldn't they simply have made it a few centimetres longer in the luff, to take a 430 mast? Are they seriously claiming such a thing would completely destroy the handling? I would have though that having to stuff such a long rigid (alloy not carbon) extension up the base of the mast would have affected the curve far more, hardly producing an even bend shape.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I see where you are going with that Craig, but you could still stuff a long rigid extension up the bigger mast, if that's your thing, leaving us cantankerous and indignant folk to do as we like best.

On one of my new sails, after removing the inbuilt pulleys and fitting a plain bar, the gap between the bar and the heavy duty webbing from which the cradle was suspended proved too tight and narrow to be able to shove the hook over the bar. I had to re-do it by swinging a wide heavy duty shackle ( the bar through the holes instead of the shackle bolt) from the bar so that the hook could slot over the curved part. That added a further 2 cms, over and above the 2 cms. of the hook with the three inbuilt pulley height. But when downhauled, it still 'closes the gap' adequately.

Yes thank you, my health is fine, (I hope you're still ripping) - or it was, till I stupidly bought another new North sail. I think there are better out there!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9407

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT, I have to ask, are you using a hook on your booms too?
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 776

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how sails are rigging on smaller masts these days and if it takes me 45 seconds to rig a downhaul I'd be shocked.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No SWC. They are all loop/loop go. (Seconds only.)

Grant, I don't understand. Are you saying you leave your sails permanently threaded to the extensions, or mast feet? I can't see how all those pulleys can be threaded in just a few seconds.

While sails may now be designed to fit on shorter masts, has that really improved their efficiency, or is it just for convenience? Did all the sail makers really get it all so wrong in the past? I've done quite a lot of comparative testing of old v. new, and could find no real handicap in the 4 to 6 metre range, using good old designs, v. new ones. I think the main sail makers got it right often enough in the past. They knew how to make the sails work!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've checked back, to make sure my memory isn't playing tricks.

To take three examples - 1) Late 1990's North Zeta 4.2 wave sail v. Pryde Combat 4.2. Once I'd rigged the Zeta on a modern RDM mast (as against the old unsuitable epoxy mast I used to hate using it with) it definitely felt more stable than the Combat in severe gusts, whereas the Combat was better in the lower wind range. Honours even, I would say.

2) A late 90's Tushingham 4.5 Vulcan wave sail v. a latest Goya 4.5 wave sail. Hard to tell, because any differences are slight. The Goya is now my favourite, but only because the Tushingham is old and worn now.Both are good sails.

3) an old Loft Lip 4.7 sail v. a modern 5.0 sail. The old Loft sail rigged on an RDM mast. and powering my favourite Exocet Cross 94 litre board is clearly superior, and I only wish they were still available to buy new, since it is now well used and won't last for much longer.

So to my mind, there has been no breakthrough in small to medium sized sail design in the last 15 years or so. Masts are better, but not really so with sails.
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