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Foil Jibing - what is your preferred technique?
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4554
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must be a newbie, or old but impressionable.
Guys are wingsuit flying at 85 mph thru rock tunnels.
Guys are double backflipping motocross bikes.
Doesn't mean you or I are working on it?
Wyatt was front and back looping his foil within 6 weeks of starting. Are you going to emulate?
You're a dreamer to watch a vid and inspire to do the same things.
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kevinkan



Joined: 07 Jun 2001
Posts: 1559
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foiling isn't necessarily for everybody. you need water depth, hopefully no shore break, lack of weeds, etc...

also the fun factor will be different for different people

i'm ~195lbs and live in a high wind area. my most commonly used gear for regular windsurfing are 4.4/4.0 with my 85l STB. I rig small, powerful freestyle sails, and ride an efficient board. I slog knee deep, but like the feeling of planing efficiently and getting the most out of my gear.

for me, adding a foil and foil board has really expanded the low end of the wind spectrum for me without adding additional large sails. I actually find that using a 5.2 on a foil is pretty fun b/c the sail is so light not pulling so hard in light wind. I've been out on the 5.2 in SoCal with other sailors who have similar planing potential with 8.5s. On the foil though, I can coast through the lulls more easily and keep my speed through the jibes much better.

I have owned large gear in the past... formula board and 10.0, 135l & 105l slalom boards with a 7.0 & 7.5. The joy of jibing and not losing much speed in the corners in light winds might be one of the most enjoyable aspects of foiling for me, and it gives me that nice, efficient, gliding feeling.

my best advice for people getting into foiling is make sure you use a setup that is balanced. i've had success putting people on the Slingshot Wizard 125 & Infinity 76 combo. It works right out of the box with minimal tinkering in my experience. Use a small sail. You only need enough power from the sail to get going. I think Wyatt Miller & Tony Logosz have slightly different opinions on this. I think Tony said use a sail small enough that you can't waterstart. Wyatt suggests going bigger. Either will work but I prefer starting people on small sails.

that said, i took a visiting friend out at Crissy the other day... put him on my 4.0 and foil in pretty windy conditions. after a rough start, he was eventually able to get a few runs foiling 30-40 feet and looking to have some control. way too windy and choppy to put a never-ever out there, but he was gung ho. he eventually went back out on the same 4.0 and 86l FreeWave.

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Kevin Kan
Sunset Sailboards, San Francisco CA
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4554
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just a bitter old fart because Kevin and Mike got sooo good in very little time while I'm still floundering in what seems like 5-20 mph winds.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
I'm just a bitter old fart

You certainly come across that way.

dllee wrote:
Fully entranced by foiling, are we?

Speculating, are we? Right now, I don't even own a foil. But I have been following it very closely. I know at least a dozen guys who became "fully entraced by foiling" after trying it. For quite a few of them, I hear or read regular reports how they are progressing, how much fun they are having, in how much wind and sail they need for foiling. Some of those "fully entraced by foiling" are way better windsurfer than I am, some are not.

dllee wrote:
Foil does enhance light wind fun, but mostly for those who never where able to plane in light winds.

Maybe the area where you sail is different, but this is definitely not true here on Cape Cod or in Western Australia. The owner of the largest windsurf shop in Western Australia told us that there is tons of used large slalom gear available right now. WA has mostly marginal winds, but decent temperatures, for ~9 months of the year. Plenty of people had large slalom kits to be able to go out in these conditions, but have decided to sell their large gear after they became proficient on foils.
One of the first local windsurfers to buy a foil was the person most likely to be on the water in light wind before. She's a rather light women who has no problems going out on a 9.5 to plane earlier than anyone else, and even has a Starboard Serenety for the very light days that she uses. Other locals who got a foil early were quite likely to be found windsurfing in light conditions before, be it on large sails, longboards, or windsups in waves.

There certainly is some hype about foiling in light wind. The important things that is often "omitted" is that getting to the point where you can foil in 8, 10, or even 12 mph requires quite a bit of learning, practice, and skills. If you want to use a small sail for light wind foiling, you'll also need to pump a lot. Sure, Robby Naish can get up on the foil with a single pump in 8 mph, and stay up - but unless you sail as well as he does otherwise, don't expect that you can, too.

But if you're willing to learn something new and put the time in, windfoiling can drop your "planing" threshold by a few knots on the same size sail, or let you use a smaller sail, or a mix of the two. I have seen enough people do it to know it's not just hype.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
You must be a newbie, or old but impressionable.

Wrong on both counts. I started windsurfing 4 years before you did, and I'm more than a decade younger than your are. Neither am I impressionable. My opinions about windfoiling are based on what I saw and heard from friends who've gotten into windfoiling, and on my own experience from trying it maybe 8-10 times at different locations with different setups and in different conditions.

dllee wrote:
Wyatt was front and back looping his foil within 6 weeks of starting. Are you going to emulate?
You're a dreamer to watch a vid and inspire to do the same things.

I'd be offended by what looks like name calling, but I'd rather still have dreams than not have any. You also seem to lack any willingness to understand the differences between tricks you cannot do. The Switch Kono I talked about is a trick that's much easier than the backloop if you know how to switch duck. It's become quite popular with beginning freestylers in Europe. The Kaino gets rid of the difficult switch ducking part and replaces it with a downwind carve to backwinded - the first part of a Carve 360. I have tried Kainos on occasion because I can do Carve 360s in the straps, and often still have some speed after turning 180 degrees to backwinded. Andy Brandt actually suggested that I should work on them, and I've seen him do them, so he knows what he's talking about.

The main problem with Kainos on flat water is that you're likely to loose a lot of speed, especially if you try to turn a bit into the wind before the pop. The pop then gets rather difficult because you have little speed. The foil changes both of these issues. It is possible to keep more speed on the foil during the carve. If you make it to backwinded on the foil (which even beginning foil freestylers can do), popping the foil out by putting weight on the back foot is much easier than popping a slow freestyle board. It's won't be a huge jump, but it does not need to be - you're still above the water, anyway!

Perhaps it will take me a few years to get a foil Kaino because I'm a slow learner. Maybe my lovely wife (who has also tried a few Kainos without foils) will get it much earlier since she learns faster. Who cares?
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4554
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I nailed it. Impressionable though not young, only read about and talked to people who have.
Expert in freestyle, knowledge of European' NE USA ,and Australian hi level freestylers.
Started windsurfing in 1979.
Now around 60.
So you are now focusing on freestyle foiling.
And you know much to advise someone who has foiled 19 days and who worked in the windsurf industry as a SALEMAN for 20 years.
No, you can't sell me anything.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1205

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
So, I nailed it. ... only read about and talked to people who have.

You should work on your reading skills, rather than being to eager to congratulate yourself. So you may have foiled about twice as much as I have, and you've come to different conclusions. As Kevin said, foiling is not for everyone.

dllee wrote:
And you know much to advise someone who has foiled 19 days and who worked in the windsurf industry as a SALEMAN for 20 years.
No, you can't sell me anything.

No, I'm not trying to advise you. You've made it quite clear that you are a hopeless case. My posts were directed at others who may be interested in foiling, and they pointed out that many windsurfers with a lot more foil experience than you have come to very different conclusions.

It sounds like working "in the windsurf industry as a SALEMAN for 20 years" has made you very skeptical towards claims from the industry, and that your limited progress after 19 days convinced you that the foiling is mostly hype, at least the low-wind promises.

Well, I could just take the word of a former windsurf industry SALEMAN with limited experience and no interest to learn new things. But I think I'd rather believe many friends who have spent a lot more time on foils, and who I have seen foiling in conditions where nobody else was planing, and even regular kites did not go out.

One of the regulars here on Cape Cod has tried foiling, had some success, and thought that it felt quite different and cool. But he's happy just going back and forth, and has very little interest in learning new things, so he has decided not to get a foil. I fully respect that, and think he's made the right decision. Perhaps you can learn from him.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4554
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got a few things right.
Skeptic. I mentioned twin foils, Hypersonic, double luff sails, extreme mast bends, FRP, fence fins, and a few more.
I have experienced a lotta hype as a windsurf salesman.
I have also built surfboards from 1966 until 1978, shaping well over 300, went thru the suspension craze in motocross from '73 to '83, and have seen tons of bad ideas that were hyped as "the new" thing.
That's why I'm the skeptic that I am.
But you missed the mark about my light wind foiling.

Just like I jibe like tbe best windsurfers, I can foil up in the lightest winds as qell as anyone, including your mentioned example, whom I've windsurfed with and against since the mid '80's.a
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on my second season foiling. Windsurfing since 1981. In my limited foiling time on the water, maybe 30 times, I would tend to agree with all the positive input about foiling as mention in many posts. Something not mention that much, foiling is so much easier on the old bones. Back, knees, elbows and neck use to suffer after a long session on the water. Now not so much.
Going fast or slow on a foil, who really cares. Having fun on the water in much liter wind on tiny sails, count me in. Learning something new and exciting at 70 years old, count me in. I'm never going to be the best foiler even at my local lake. I don't care if I can't do some new and crazy freestyle trick on my foil. This new sport has greatly increased my days on the water and I have a big smile on my weather worn face every time I go out.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4554
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I guess different strokes for different folks.
Recent string of good winds at Berkeley has my 5 meter sized sails the most used.
Foilable but also jumpable on 90 liter boards.
I average about 2 jumps per run, maybe 60 total. My butt might touch water 5 times, and full shower maybe twice, but still hooked in and in the straps. Moderate energy expended there.
Plane out of 90% inside jibes, maybe 50% outside in the confused chop. No energy wasted there.
Foiling, no foiling jibes yet, so jerky energy wasting jibes and tacks. Worse is uphauling..that kills me and I usually uphaul 5 days a year max, plenty of years never uphauling.
Once going, foiling takes 3+ pumps and CONSTANT minute adjustment sapping energy always with the theat of a breach and a violent gymnastic sheet in throw forward weight back recovery. WAYYY more energy expended.
Plus, dragging a 73 cm 122 liter board and clumsy rig 100 steps to the dock. A 90 liter 58 wide board takes half the energy. My foil boom is heavier than my ws boom, which makes up for the meter difference in size.
What a crybaby!
Foiling jibes coming in the next 5 sessions.
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