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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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 Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Setting aside user error (which can trip up either system) the 2-bolt system provides redundancy (and safety) that the one bolt can't.
It's surprising to hear that you need to run a sail further back on a JP Freestyle that the two bolt base allows. I go from 5.0 to 7.0 on my JP freestyle and never have the uni more than an inch and a half from dead center.
With the two bolt system I have the option of putting the uni wherever I want, OR set and forget (because you don't need to remove the plate for roof racking etc.)
| kevinkan wrote: | I've also seen many people whose 2-bolt unis come apart in the water b/c they didn't push the clips in all the way. It's important for everybody to check their gear before they hit the water... 1-bolt or 2-bolt.
I also like the 1-bolt design for the adjustability in the mast track. I tend to ride w/ my mast base pretty far back on my JP Freestyle... some positions that would not be possible w/ the 2-bolt setup. Also, every time I go sail, I have the option to put the uni wherever I want. With the 2-bolt system, it was set it and forget it. Not a terrible thing, but the 1-bolt encourages experimentation and can help you get tuned into your gear. |
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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speedysailor
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | Rubber also will not last as long as tendon or mechanical.
Coachg |
There has been some debate in cyberspace regarding the durability of tendons vs. hourglass boge joints. A forum search can bring up much. Otherwise, I agree with everything that has been posted about this issue. The average sailor, though, can get by with a one bolt universal. I haven't used my mechanical A.R.T. in years, but it's still good. I don't think the Chinook version was as good as it is. After using a one bolt screw-in W.S. Hawaii tendon with all sails bigger than a 6.5, I switched this year to the two bolt Chinook tendon. 6.5 and smaller I will go to the two bolt boge or a screw in Europin. I definitely prefer the Europin and have considered either constructing or buying one that works with the two bolt. The reason would be that the downhaul crank I use with the chinook push pin sticks in the mast extention. The europin crank I have is much easier to use. However, the Chinook two bolt works in a very similar way to the Europin in practice. | kevinkan wrote: | | I know people have had issues w/ 1-bolts coming loose in the water. Not all 1-bolt designs are created equal, and the Streamlined 1-bolt is so much easier to get tight (and to loosen) than the Chinook 1-Bolt... and what the deal w/ the Chinook 1-Bolt hourglass uni having the bolt OFF CENTER??? Makes zero sense. It's important for everybody to check their gear before they hit the water... 1-bolt or 2-bolt. |
Almost all the pros use the streamlined. For the Chinook one bolt I carry a rubber hammer in case I have no energy to unscrew it. When I started using them over the A.R.T., I was rather miffed that they were supplying an inferior designed part now as standard equipment.
| kevinkan wrote: |
I also like the 1-bolt design for the adjustability in the mast track. |
I find with my older style mast track forward boards, I can put the base closer to the back with the one bolt than the two so I use the one bolt on those boards. An interesting thing about the old Mistral mast tracks would be that they supply a hole in the bus for the screw-in behind their patented pin hole which provides the position furthest back.
| kevinkan wrote: |
...and 1-bolts put everything a little lower to the deck of the board. |
I can't see how this matters. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| speedysailor wrote: | | coachg wrote: | Rubber also will not last as long as tendon or mechanical.
Coachg |
There has been some debate in cyberspace regarding the durability of tendons vs. hourglass boge joints. A forum search can bring up much. |
Soeedy, I based my opinion on experience rather then Internet research. The main difference that I have seen at our school is that even when not being used, the rubber deteriorates and becomes brittle. So we have lost many rubber but never a tendon or mechanical in the last 6 years. However, if you were to hook up both a rubber and tendon to a machine that repeatedly bent them I could see the tendon fatiguing sooner. It just seems that the tendon is more UV resistant.
Coachg |
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speedysailor
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 841
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | speedysailor wrote: | | coachg wrote: | Rubber also will not last as long as tendon or mechanical.
Coachg |
There has been some debate in cyberspace regarding the durability of tendons vs. hourglass boge joints. A forum search can bring up much. |
Soeedy, I based my opinion on experience rather then Internet research. The main difference that I have seen at our school is that even when not being used, the rubber deteriorates and becomes brittle. So we have lost many rubber but never a tendon or mechanical in the last 6 years. However, if you were to hook up both a rubber and tendon to a machine that repeatedly bent them I could see the tendon fatiguing sooner. It just seems that the tendon is more UV resistant.
Coachg |
Certainly you deal with a lot more equipment than the average sailor so your opinion carries more weight here. I recently acquired a used Chinook 2 bolt tendon universal without the plate. It was worn so I decided to replace the tendon which had external wear marks. After talking to the guys at the shop and taking the old tendon out, I did realize that it was still good. However, I am better informed about the internal stress that leads to failure. The shop owner did tell me that tendon joints will also harden and become brittle with time. However, he's often wrong about equipment details being strongly motivated to sell. I sailed with a very old Hi-fly Boge up until it broke two seasons ago leaving me stranded on an island. It was more than ten years old and should have been replaced. As you stated, even in storage it had deteriorated (little UV). One thing about a mechanical joint would be that proper storage retains their value. Internet research will give you a lot of anecdotal information to add to your own, but very little hard study. Unfortunately, there have been some inferior batch tendons that have been sold and that led to a lot of negative comments about them which has muddied the waters of opinion. However, those quality issues have been addressed successfully by the industry.
Last edited by speedysailor on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:27 am; edited 3 times in total |
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andymc4610
Joined: 19 May 2000
Posts: 684
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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There is a difference in quality of the rubber hour glass style. I went through a bad batch of the (3) in one year, all under warrenty. Then the shop stuck a WS hawaii one on and I used it for years. it is now retired...
In an unrelated topic does anyone know if WS Hawaii will be back? I like there stuff.... |
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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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We use only one bolt because we change the foot position often, sometimes while drifting offshore for a break. When a session is over I like to go all the way back in the slot for a speed racer ride several miles back to the launch.
Changing the adjustments offshore allow you to operate outside of the "limits" of your gear.
Many two bolt users are stuck in one spot for most sessions, meaning the adjustment is less than ideal most of the time, but they have gotten used to it and tell you "no problem"
You can used to anything I guess. |
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kevinkan
Joined: 07 Jun 2001
Posts: 1661
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: |
It's surprising to hear that you need to run a sail further back on a JP Freestyle that the two bolt base allows. I go from 5.0 to 7.0 on my JP freestyle and never have the uni more than an inch and a half from dead center.
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The JP's seem to have their mast tracks further forward from the footstraps and fin than most other freestyle boards. Seems like F2 has the narrowest distance, followed by Fanatic and then RRD. If there is a particular rig geometry or span that you get used to, it's sometimes nice to replicate this on another board instead of just going middle of the track. Anyway, I ran my mast base toward the back of the track on my JP's even before riding the Fanatic and other boards... and that's just the feeling I liked.
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Sunset Sailboards, San Francisco CA
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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My jibing across my board quiver improved noticeably when I got out the tape measure and set my mast equidistant from my front strap on all my boards.
\m/ |
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LeeD
Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 1175
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Noble idea for similarly sized and type boards, but for my CourseSlalom 70cms to 54 slaloms to 50cm bump boards, it just isn't possible physically.
JP's track with single bolt can only be 21" from center of front strap, while CS boards easily can go to 25", mostly used around 23" or so.
Then that TigaFreecarve only goes 20", but the comfort spot is actually around 18" with the centered front straps....
Too much gear, none of it really dialed. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| LeeD wrote: | | Too much gear, none of it really dialed. |
Add, "Not enough time". I'd love to organize/cull my fins, upgrade my downhauls and outhauls, find the optimal spot for my mast bases and A-box fins and harness line lengths, maybe even some day try different footstrap positions, but when it's windy I'm going sailing and when it's not I have other stuff to do. It's simpler for me to adapt to my gear each session than to get it all dialed in to me. It ain't optimal, but it's sure simple.
But the other extreme work well, too, for those willing to do it. A recreational-sailor bud will use only mast extensions adjustable in inches (not centimeters), always sets his outhaul and downhaul to the same settings within one millimeter, can tell by the feel which factory made his sails, uses the same fin from 3.2 to about 6.8, and told one of the world's premiere shapers EXACTLY how to shape every millimeter of his board. The payoff is knowing EXACTLY how his every flinch will affect his kit on the water and in the air, and rapid progression to the best sailor in our end of the river.
\m/ |
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