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isobras
Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439
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 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| bajaDean wrote: | | and most important do you know the difference between a right and a privilege? |
Yep. |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14890
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| isobras wrote: | | bajaDean wrote: | | and most important do you know the difference between a right and a privilege? |
Yep. |
well is voting to you a right or a privilege?
Do we have a democracy when people can lose their ability to vote.
I do not know if others caught this but today the State of Pennsylvania in court though through the entire trial over the law never argued this till the closing arguments. It amazes me the republicans argued that voting is a privilege and not a right.
And again in the case when asked for evidence of vote fraud that an ID would prevent was not able to any cases. Here is the quote from the testimony.
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2012/08/02/pennsylvania-state-officials-testify-voter-id-law-is-unconstitutional
| Quote: | | The case in Pennsylvania state court did not begin well for proponents of the new voter ID law, with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania acknowledging in a stipulation that they could find: "no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania... the parties are not aware of any in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania... [and] respondents will not offer any evidence in this action that in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred." |
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57485325-503544/pennsylvania-voter-id-law-case-draws-to-a-close/
here is what the state and planiff agree to. Because the state had no such information ever....
http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/07/24/fox-hides-lack-of-voter-fraud-and-political-mot/187303
| Quote: |
The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there "have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states."
Additionally, the agreement states Pennsylvania "will not offer any evidence in this action that in-person voter fraud has in fact occurred in Pennsylvania and elsewhere" or even argue "that in person voter fraud is likely to occur in November 2012 in the absence of the Photo ID law." [Talking Points Memo, 7/24/12] |
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isobras
Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| bajaDean wrote: | is voting to you a right or a privilege?
Do we have a democracy when people can lose their ability to vote.
It amazes me the republicans argued that voting is a privilege and not a right. |
It's all laid out in the Constitution. No need to type it here.
No one is talking about anyone losing their right to vote regarding voter ID.
We've all seen beaucoup cases of voter fraud. Only Blago says it doesn't exist.
The U.S. is not and must never be a democracy. It is a Republic.
The rest is largely incomprehensible snippets and fragmented accusations I do not believe. Cite anyone's court argument that voting, per se, is only a privilege and I'll admit they're wrong no matter who they are... but if you want any credibility, you'll need to acknowledge that you understand that we have neither a right nor the privilege of voting in a presidential election. |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14890
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| isobras wrote: | | bajaDean wrote: | is voting to you a right or a privilege?
Do we have a democracy when people can lose their ability to vote.
It amazes me the republicans argued that voting is a privilege and not a right. |
It's all laid out in the Constitution. No need to type it here.
No one is talking about anyone losing their right to vote regarding voter ID.
We've all seen beaucoup cases of voter fraud. Only Blago says it doesn't exist.
The U.S. is not and must never be a democracy. It is a Republic.
The rest is largely incomprehensible snippets and fragmented accusations I do not believe. Cite anyone's court argument that voting, per se, is only a privilege and I'll admit they're wrong no matter who they are... but if you want any credibility, you'll need to acknowledge that you understand that we have neither a right nor the privilege of voting in a presidential election. |
really, so the days of poll taxes was not losing ones rights to vote and were not intended to do so.
again making a law when not one demonstrated example was even able to be shown of the specifics. This is what I call channeling from above...
funny how the right wing like to cite the second amendment all the time.... no need to type it well that one for some cause has been typed a trillion or more times.
I cited sources to the agreed on facts of the case, you are welcome to find some that counter those and I will look at the facts. But I will not accept your word of these are snippets when there are multiple citations that say the same.
Put up is all I ask, and taking your word these are wrong is not going to happen and is intellectually just not the way the world progresses. I do not listen to people that just have so called faith from above.
you typed in things like buy beer and so on that are not natural human rights.... and you considered those to be the equivalent of a right to vote is just not even defensible IMHO. Nice copy and paste from Fox or another right wing propaganda site.. |
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rigitrite
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Mikey must be absolutely giddy with right-wing glee, now that he lives in a country where the authorities can demand to see your papers before allowing you your constitutionally guaranteed right to vote.
...of course, in my case, the "authorities" were a couple of guys in their 70's wearing black socks with white mall-walking sneakers. They asked very very nicely to see my papers when I voted early this week.
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rigitrite
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We've all seen beaucoup cases of voter fraud. |
No we haven't. Voter fraud just isn't a problem in this country. It's like invoking the ticking time-bomb scenario to justify torture: a gastly solution that violates what we stand for as a nation to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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isobras
Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| bajaDean wrote: | Put up is all I ask, and taking your word these are wrong is not going to happen and is intellectually just not the way the world progresses. I do not listen to people that just have so called faith from above.
you typed in things like buy beer and so on that are not natural human rights.... and you considered those to be the equivalent of a right to vote is just not even defensible IMHO. Nice copy and paste from Fox or another right wing propaganda site.. |
Wrong tree, guy. You've come to the party about 15 years too late. I've posted thousands of pages of hard proof with links to its original sources. >99% of the response from the left is deliberate distortions and total fabrications of what I ACTUALLY said (like your "buy beer" comment) plus stuff like Keycocker's comment to the effect that "Harvard School of Public Health is a whacko far right fringe group with no credibility" and many lefties' dismissals of incriminating videos of complete speeches from liberal politicians as mere out-of-context sound bites.
It's not worth the effort any more. These people would vote for Obama even if he had run up more debt than all his predecessors from the first George W to the last George W, published a book detailing his strong preferences for Marxists, chosen to publicly announce his political career from the living room of a self-admitted Marxist and police station bomber, won most of his elections by filing suits to disqualify his opponents rather than facing them on the ballot, directed defense contractors to disobey the WARN Act in order to delay revelation that he will emasculate our national defense capacity beginning next January, led one of the most secretive White Houses in our history, lied to the public on many proven (often by his own media, his appointed cabinet members, the CBO, the IRS, the Census Bureau, and many similar sources the left here dismisses as irrelevant or corrupt) cases from stump speeches to State of the Union addresses, governed over a net REDUCTION in the number of jobs under his watch despite large increases in the work force, cited the Reverend God Damn America as his spiritual mentor, married a woman who said his election was the first time she had respected our nation, lied to Congressman Stupak to trick him into casting the decisive Obamacare approval vote, sealed his college records, appointed as his Job Czar a man who sells prohibited weapons components to enemy nations and shipped tens of thousands of jobs overseas, partied like Paris Hilton while his nation's economy circles the toilet bowl, taken Chrysler [correction: GM] from its legal owners by edict and given it to the unions which put him in office, and a few hundred more such abominable actions which place him squarely in Blagoland.
Oh, yeah ... he DID all that, as proven beyond rebuttal, with cited references until it became obvious that was futile, that facts don't matter to these people whose gang you've just joined.
No mas. No more attempts to prove it, even though it's easy to do. We present the facts FYI, and the left can damn well do their own vetting homework, as we do before typing the more important facts.
Last edited by isobras on Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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isobras
Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| rigitrite wrote: | | the authorities can demand to see your papers before allowing you your constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. |
Dead people, dogs, and illegal aliens do not have that right. And a permit is required to stand on a street corner and freely speak to a significant crowd. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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rigitright said:
| Quote: | | constitutionally guaranteed right to vote. |
But the constitution guarantees it only for citizens without felony convictions. So if you can get registered and are an illegal or have had a felony conviction, you can vote. I guess registration is different in each state, so I am sure there are plenty of loop holes for those cheating the system.
Many illegals have drivers license so the point is somewhat moot, plus I am not all the way on the "right" on this issue.
I wish there was a way to guarantee that all votes cast were legal without creating overwhelming hardship on some citizens, but I guess we haven't found it yet.
With the checks and balances where I live, one can register without any proof if ID or citizenship, but when voting you will have to show an ID, but it includes a drivers license, or utility bill plus several other standard things. This is really dumb. Essentially, if you pay utilities, you can vote regardless of citizenship. A photo ID would help.
If someone wishes to vote for a dead relative or someone that can't or wont vote in the family, all they need is their registration card or if no card, then a copy of the persons utility bill to vote. A photo ID would help here.
From: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/pamphlets/largepamp.shtml
| Quote: | What if I don't have a driver's license, personal identification number, OR a social security number? Can I still register to vote in Texas?
A voter who has not been issued a driver’s license or social security number may register to vote, but such voter must submit proof of identification when presenting himself/herself for voting or with his/her mail-in ballots, if voting by mail. These voters’ names are flagged on the official voter registration list with the annotation of “ID.” The “ID” notation instructs the poll worker to request a proper form of identification from these voters when they present themselves for voting. Acceptable identification includes:
•a driver's license or personal identification card issued to the person by the Department of Public Safety or a similar document issued to the person by an agency of another state, regardless of whether the license or card has expired;
•a form of identification containing the person's photograph that establishes the person's identity;
•a birth certificate or other document confirming birth that is admissible in a court of law and establishes the person's identity;
•United States citizenship papers issued to the person;
•a United States passport issued to the person;
•official mail addressed to the person by name from a governmental entity;
•a copy of a current utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the voter; or
•any other form of identification prescribed by the Secretary of State.
Voter registration certificate
•Once you apply, a voter registration certificate (proof of registration) will be mailed to you within 30 days.
•Check your certificate to be sure all information is correct. (If there is a mistake, make corrections and return it to the voter registrar immediately.)
•When you go to the polls to vote, present your certificate as proof of registration.
•You may vote without your certificate by signing an affidavit at the polling place and showing some other form of identification (for example, driver's license, birth certificate, copy of electric bill). •If you lose your certificate, notify your County Voter Registrar in writing to receive a new one.
•You will automatically receive a new certificate every two years, if you haven't moved from the address at which you are registered. |
I don't know how many other states have similar voting laws, but Texas is set up for all sorts of voter fraud if anyone wants to stuff the ballot box. There is no way to know the scope of the problem. Maybe it's negligable or maybe it's huge. Voter fraud has been prosecuted here, but is it the tip of the iceberg? Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. |
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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598
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| Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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"Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist."
Just because you dont see it doesnt mean it DOES exist either.
If I dont see any info I prefer to withhold judgement and skip the part about damage to the most fragile in our society.
Those who are being forced out are the elderly and wise, students, underemployed folks . those whose personal effects are not safe and id frequently gone.
Studies done long ago on attempts to alter a national election through voter id misrepresentation found that it was not feasible and no one had ever been seen to attempt it. A non problem.
Those same studies showed that it would be much more effective to pass laws restricting id requirements to steal an election but that would only work for the GOP.
The crooks are now trying to steal the election as soon as they found out how to do it. The Dems aren't doing this right now because they cant.
I assume they will steal one also if they get the chance. That would be a crime.
So is this. |
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