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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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 Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| boggsman1 wrote: | | Matty, brah... If you're going to use the words "clueless", and "douchebag" to insult fellow windsurfers, please spell them correctly. |
brah? is that english? |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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mat-ty, to have credibility, you have to be very focused and have your act together. Do you think that your off-the-top rants and insults about President Obama and Hillary Clinton offer that?
To be quite frank, you've been quite light on the background and credible references to support your hateful positions. Maybe you could care less, but you have to realize that you can suffer greatly in winning arguments with that kind of strategy. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: |
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mac said: | Quote: | No one was left to die--you were left to repeat lies.
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OK, you tell us how the Benghazi survivors were rescued? Learn the facts about the story and you will see that they were left to die. They survived by their own initiative, with no help from the US. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Techno--you need to back up your claims with something besides repeating right wing ad hominem attacks. The basic facts of the attack at Benghazi, the timeline, the presence of a large CIA operation nearby--but not close enough to respond--are all public records.
The sad thing is that the right is too busy trying to invent crazy stories to tarnish Hillary with without realizing what the larger criticism is. The US policy of engineering new governments, whether more democratic or not, has been almost universally a failure, through multiple presidents, both Republican and Democratic. Bush's efforts in Iraq destabilized a stalemate between Sunni and Shiite forces and threw highly trained officers out in the street--where some of them became the corps of ISIS. Obama was leary of supporting militias in Libya, but ultimately Hillary won the day. Our efforts to oust Khadafy, and a large CIA operation, were not enough to tip off the embassy. It is that aspect of Hillary's judgement that is questionable. The rest of the song and dance by dimwitted Republican Congressmen investigating Benghazi is just so much happy horseshit. Including the claim that people were left to die. Look at the timeline. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:04 am Post subject: |
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mac said: | Quote: | | Techno--you need to back up your claims with something besides repeating right wing ad hominem attacks. |
No attacks, just facts. If you can find anything to show that the US did anything to assist, support or recover the survivors in Benghazi, go for it. 13 hours was plenty of time to lend support, but the decision was to do NOTHING.
They were left to die.
My claims come from a talk that I attended, given by Kris Paronto (one of the CIA operatives), where he described in great detail what transpired during the 13 hours of the attack. It was through their own initiative that they were able to survive and get out of Libya. |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14880
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | mac said: | Quote: | | Techno--you need to back up your claims with something besides repeating right wing ad hominem attacks. |
No attacks, just facts. If you can find anything to show that the US did anything to assist, support or recover the survivors in Benghazi, go for it. 13 hours was plenty of time to lend support, but the decision was to do NOTHING.
They were left to die.
My claims come from a talk that I attended, given by Kris Paronto (one of the CIA operatives), where he described in great detail what transpired during the 13 hours of the attack. It was through their own initiative that they were able to survive and get out of Libya. |
I guess you missed the fact that he does not know what was going on elsewhere. He is not privy what so ever to all things going on obviously because he never noted the following... He only knew what he was going through.
As noted that the findings found the military did not listen to sec of defense as he ordered them to to use all means necessary from the start. The military did not do that. They only ultimately answer to him and the president. The military used their judgement to do what they thought they could safely. It is easy to decide in hindsight but the military for some reason just did not want to enter without more data, which is reasonable.
You are foolish to listen to one man who had very little information himself to go on. Ya the guy has guts to do as he did in the first place not knowing what was going on in that area.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2016/06/28/panetta-ordered-military-assets-for-benghazi-n2184771
| Quote: | | Committee Report: Secretary of Defense Panetta Ordered Military Assets For Benghazi, They Never Moved |
Also note the right wing denied funding for more security to the state department.
Also note your guy did not even tell you that Clinton herself was going to Benghazi the next month is part of why they were in Benghazi. Again he was not privy to all information.
_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:54 am Post subject: |
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baja said: | Quote: | | You are foolish to listen to one man who had very little information himself to go on. |
Clearly, Paronto did not know what was going on with the military or Dep. of State, but what was known is that NO American asset showed up to help or even to get the survivors out of the country.
THEY WERE LEFT TO DIE, or survive on their own ingenuity. Even the CIA operatives (Paronto and his buddies) were ordered to "stand down" when the embassy called for help. After 30 minutes, they ignored the order and moved in to fight.
The whole thing stinks!!!!! |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14880
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | baja said: | Quote: | | You are foolish to listen to one man who had very little information himself to go on. |
Clearly, Paronto did not know what was going on with the military or Dep. of State, but what was known is that NO American asset showed up to help or even to get the survivors out of the country.
THEY WERE LEFT TO DIE, or survive on their own ingenuity. Even the CIA operatives (Paronto and his buddies) were ordered to "stand down" when the embassy called for help. After 30 minutes, they ignored the order and moved in to fight.
The whole thing stinks!!!!! |
Yes day after quarterbacks are great.
Of course they were told to stand down when no one knows what is going on at the scene. You do not want to risk even more people.
Again the military was ordered by the sec of defence immediately to go. There was no one above him that said not to which is only the president.. They did as they believed was in their best judgement. Ya one can find fault in the military and what they did but that is day after quarterbacking.
Yes they made the call to disobey the orders, as it appears their boss was not willing to let then go till they had further info. What if it had been a few thousand angry people armed and killed all of them too. No one knew till the military drones were overhead. But again the military I do not know why when they had an order from the sec of defence to move sat idle with the manpower that should have been in the air immediately even if they would have had to turn back. I really do not know why the report does not get into this. Obviously my first conclusion is the commision was so right wing partisan they did not want to get to the absolute bottom of it.
Again the military had orders to go, and they did not...They only answer to him and the president so their asses were covered to immediately fly into action. .
_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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What stinks is the lack of critical thinking on the part of those who believe Paranto without checking. Takes about three clicks to get this from AP fact check:
| Quote: | THE FACTS: A 2014 report by the House Intelligence Committee said it "found no evidence that there was either a stand down order or a denial of available air support" after the State Department compound came under attack. A report by Republicans on the House Armed Services Committee also said no restrictions were placed on a military response.
The "stand down" theory has taken on a life of its own and centers on a Special Operations team that was stopped from flying from the Libyan capital, Tripoli, to Benghazi after the attacks of Sept. 11-12, 2012, had ended. Instead, the team was instructed to help protect and care for those being evacuated from Benghazi and from the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli.
The senior military officer who issued the instruction to "remain in place" and the detachment leader who received it said it was the right decision and has been widely mischaracterized. The order was to remain in Tripoli and protect some three dozen embassy personnel rather than fly to Benghazi some 600 miles away after all Americans there would have been evacuated. The medic is credited with saving the life of an evacuee from the attacks. |
The Congressional testimony of those at the embassy was that it was overrun almost immediately, and the deaths occurred within 3 hours. Stevenson was in a safe room and died from the fire.
There are all kinds of people in a crisis. Some want to act, even when their actions might be rash. I don't know if Paranto was one of those, but I know that instinct is common on the right--look only at Bard's allegation that he could have heroed out in Orlando if he had just been there with his guns. But his accounts have been pretty thoroughly discredited.
Of course, if the objective is to scour the earth for "facts" to justify hatred for Obama and Clinton, no critical thinking or fact checking is necessary. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the information from the guys on the ground in the middle of the fight means nothing.
| Quote: | The security contractors -- Kris (“Tanto”) Paronto, Mark (“Oz”) Geist, and John (“Tig”) Tiegen -- spoke exclusively, and at length, to Fox News about what they saw and did that night. Baier, Fox News’ Chief Political Anchor, asked them about one of the most controversial questions arising from the events in Benghazi: Was help delayed?
Word of the attack on the diplomatic compound reached the CIA annex just after 9:30 p.m. Within five minutes, the security team at the annex was geared up for battle, and ready to move to the compound, a mile away.
“Five minutes, we're ready,” said Paronto, a former Army Ranger. “It was thumbs up, thumbs up, we're ready to go.”
But the team was held back. According to the security operators, they were delayed from responding to the attack by the top CIA officer in Benghazi, whom they refer to only as “Bob.”
“It had probably been 15 minutes I think, and … I just said, ‘Hey, you know, we gotta-- we need to get over there, we're losing the initiative,’” said Tiegen. “And Bob just looks straight at me and said, ‘Stand down, you need to wait.’”
“We're starting to get calls from the State Department guys saying, ‘Hey, we're taking fire, we need you guys here, we need help,’” said Paronto.
After a delay of nearly 30 minutes, the security team headed to the besieged consulate without orders. They asked their CIA superiors to call for armed air support, which never came.
Now, looking back, the security team said they believed that if they had not been delayed for nearly half an hour, or if the air support had come, things might have turned out differently.
“Ambassador Stevens and Sean [Smith], yeah, they would still be alive, my gut is yes,” Paronto said. Tiegen concurred.
“I strongly believe if we'd left immediately, they'd still be alive today,” he added. |
The guys on the ground had no reason to make up stories. You can believe them or not. I do believe them. |
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