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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--be more specific about what you think I am "ducking." No conservative needs to put words into my mouth about my premise. It is simple: most fundamentally, violence begets violence. Hardly a new or original idea. Neither the wholesale violence of the Bush administration nor the targeted, drone based violence of the Obama administration has done anything but beget additional violence. I understand that fundamentally--I instinctively resist bullies, even if it is not in my own best interest.

The difference between treating Al Qaeda as a criminal matter or a war matter seems lost on those on the right. There is no state behind Al Qaeda, at least since the Taliban was overthrown by the US. And most of those involved in law enforcement do not practice some generalized sense of revenge as a matter of public policy. Instead, they seek retribution for the crimes of the individuals. Treating the most radical criminals, who happend to be Muslim, as criminals, may have reduced the respect that they were accorded in the eyes of those who saw them as resisting American bullying. Perhaps not. But Bush wanted to ignore them, and Obama wants to rely on what he thought was better intelligence. Neither approach has worked, so I am not convinced that more violence alone, whether general or "surgically" targeted, will work any better. There is no doubt that modern warfare, both under Bush and under Obama, has fewer civilian casualties. But that hasn't prevented a steady increase in the number of terrorists, and the tendency of those terrorists to blame the US.

If NW made an analytical comment instead of another effort to ascribe motives to those hated liberals and to attack Obama, he might have to slow down enough to be careful in his choice of words. Someone who leads with an ad hominem attack may not have much higher moral ground to stand on.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac~
No state or country behind the jihadists,,,,,, doesn't matter, even though Iran is in most cases.
You either believe in the war on terror or you don't, like Chamberlin, oops, I mean Kerry doesn't. You don't, you'd rather fill up our jails with captured jihadists before they blow themselves up, no matter where they're from. You'd also love to close Gitmo, I'm sure, but I don't.
You also seem to think that the foreign jihadists have no effect on our now domestic jihadists, you don't say that, but your logic takes me to that conclusion. Complain about history all you want, but it has no effect on what we are facing today, and offers no solutions.
I understand your liberal logic, but I don't have to agree, and I don't.

"ad hominem attack"? Please, to you an opposing view is an ad hominem attack, which in itself, could be considered an ad hominem attack on your part. You are sounding a lot like Baja Dean, but w/o his paranoia.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14834
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
mac~
No state or country behind the jihadists,,,,,, doesn't matter, even though Iran is in most cases.
You either believe in the war on terror or you don't, like Chamberlin, oops, I mean Kerry doesn't. You don't, you'd rather fill up our jails with captured jihadists before they blow themselves up, no matter where they're from. You'd also love to close Gitmo, I'm sure, but I don't.
You also seem to think that the foreign jihadists have no effect on our now domestic jihadists, you don't say that, but your logic takes me to that conclusion. Complain about history all you want, but it has no effect on what we are facing today, and offers no solutions.
I understand your liberal logic, but I don't have to agree, and I don't.

"ad hominem attack"? Please, to you an opposing view is an ad hominem attack, which in itself, could be considered an ad hominem attack on your part. You are sounding a lot like Baja Dean, but w/o his paranoia.


See these moron right wingers had opened pandora's box a long time ago. No paranoia here I do not like being stalked by right wingers who are known to kill americans for political differences....

To me calling a person now a moron and idiot is such a light insult, but it is the truth. those who say meds, paranoia and such well, you have been doing it for a heck of a long time. and now I am fighting fire with just a little water and have even a liberal coming to your defense.. this is hysterical...

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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14834
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pointster wrote:
baja-human wrote:
pointster wrote:
Baja,

Name-calling is not a convention on this sub-forum. The majority of people who post here do not engage in name-calling. Beyond that, I don't think a marketing class is where I would go to learn about appropriate modes of civic discourse.


I know I have seen insults here before, even name calling... and for sure trolling, releasing peoples personal info against their wishes, stalking and threatening to get people fired? is a standard issue. hhmmmm we all have different areas that we believe are more offensive, we certainly do that in law. I really have never seen or heard about name calling of this nature where it was against the law. In fact you will find the primary reason for the first amendment to my side of this one. Now is threatening to get a person fired against the law, I do not think so, trolling i don't think so, is stalking, yes it can be, can harrassment yes it can be, but I believe both of those are/were before the supreme court as we speak.

You would be surprised what you can learn in other disciplines on human nature if you apply yourself. Marketing is certainly a discipline in human nature.


Name-calling by some on this sub-forum does not make it a convention. A convention, such as placing north at the top of a map, is universally practiced and accepted. Name-calling on this sub-forum is neither. Most people who post here do not engage in name-calling, nor do they find it acceptable practice.

Calling people idiots and morons in order to shame them is counter-productive, as, according to psychologists, "feeling shame neither encourages nor motivates positive behavior change."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201401/guilt-good-shame-bad

You write of fighting fire with fire, but that ends up bringing more heat than light. The bad behavior of others does not excuse our own. I believe that the dignity of each individual is a foundation of liberalism. We need to treat everyone with respect, not just the people who agree with us.


Thanks for the link..

Did you read this from your link...

Quote:
When the shift is to a guilt message, such as “I did something bad,” this can serve as powerful motivation for positive behavior change


But more-so... again you are missing it completely... again. I have told you many times I am not trying to change an idiots or morons mind once I have determined that they fit that category... but now you show me where they do believe it may be possible, but the article did not break it down into abilities to learn. To me a right winger gave up that ability once he hit 60.... ... and there is an absolute difference in right wingers brain vs liberals I have posted that a few times would have been even more interesting if the article was a bit more detailed into these issues..

To me that is as I said a assignment only an insane person would continually to make a idiot or moron think differently. What is interesting here vs other boards there are lots of intelligent right wingers on other boards but for some reason we have a deficit of them on this board. Just one from the UK other than one we just have this handful of idiots on the right. Maybe the people who are right wingers with brains just do not post here because of how stupid the right wingers are because we have a good number of lurkers.

A bit different but in the same lines I noted on another forum a person that I had not given up on as being one of the moron pack watched me do this with the ultra right wingers on that other site and when i kept calling them out to challenge my facts and different reasoning that no one ever heard and they could not dispute. So as he put it he changed to not be a right winger, that i opened his eyes. He was not a ultra liberal in his change as I said he became left of center but you would have thought it as he attacked the ultra right wingers.

Yes I believe the democratic party problem is they will not fight fire with fire. Dr. Howard Dean was one who did. and he was by far in todays terms the most successful at getting dems elected in past years. Yes Gandis are very admirable in their lives. But I can tell you evil right wingers like Lee Atwater, Rove, Nixon, Bush2, Cheney will steam roll ya.

Note Atwater at the end of his life went to to of the dems he did wrong to to ask for foregiveness, and I am happy neither would do so. Now for some who were on that path before look at them now, Ariana Huffington use to be a hard core right winger. Look at her website now, I forgive her. Look at David Broock who use to be a top paid right wing sleeze attacking the dems with the lies, (he was paid by Rev Moon, the trust fund guy richard melon scaife of the pittsburg paper (scaife paid for attacking clinton before he was even elected including paying for allof Paula Jones legal work and her nose job), anyway David Brock started Media matters once he got a conscience IE changed his shame to guild for positive change too. I forgive him. Note these are two of the most hated sites by right wingers because as they put it they know the game the right wingers play.

So yes please dems wake up and get another pit bull like Dr. Howard Dean...do a little fighting fire with fire. The supreme court needs a few dems put on it, we need people that are not idiots there. citizens united and anointing King George Bush are just two examples of unprecedented stupidity of the supreme court idiot.

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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not surprised that NW doesn't understand the difference between an argument and an ad hominem attack. Let me help you with that one:


Ad hominem
An attack upon an opponent in order to discredit their arguement or opinion. Ad hominems are used by immature and/or unintelligent people because they are unable to counter their opponent using logic and intelligence. from the Urban Dictionary.

Such was the nature of your attack on Obama. Again.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there is one thing in this world that I don't need,,,,, is mac help.
Thanks anyway,,,,,,,, reject, dumped.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14834
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some of the right wingers may have a new pastor after they read this...

http://freakoutnation.com/2015/07/evangelist-pastor-calls-on-christians-to-fight-same-sex-marriage-equality-with-guns/

Evangelist Pastor Calls On Christians To Fight Same-Sex Marriage Equality With Guns

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baja Dean.

I chuckled out loud at your 'easy' solution (independence of power supplies) and entirely agree.

I'm only amazed that you have escaped censure for your inference that the free and abundant supply of 'black gold' endowed on these fractious Middle Eastern states, has given them wealth, power, and influence out of all proportion to any contribution they have made to the advancement of 20th century (and beyond) civilization. And that depriving them of it would 'stitch them up!'

So I, as a beyond help conservative, will say it for you, and take the flak!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a final thought as to why the instinctive anger against militant Islam.

Windsurfed a couple of days ago at an extensive low tide flat sandy beach, which was packed with holiday makers. An inflatable beach ball was blowing out to sea, so I retrieved it, and brought it back.

I couldn't see who it could have belonged to, but soon noticed a young girl of about 6 or 7 , hurtling full tilt down the beach, arms and legs a flaling blur, and hair flying in the breeze. She hesitantly pulled up looking a bit flustered and unsure of herself, till I smiled and said 'yours, I presume.'

She shyly took it, looking a bit self-conscious, and went hurtling back up the beach again, (only legs flailing this time), apparently without a care in the world.

I looked about and thought, here was everybody, free to behave as they wished, with teenage girls and young women showing off in swimming costumes, kids just aimlessly but energetically playing, and people like me windsurfing, because we are free to please ourselves.

That, is what our culture allows. Contrast that with the life that little girl (and all children) would have been subject to in an Islamic controlled state. That reinforced in my mind, how valuable yet taken for granted, our precious freedoms really are!
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the process of handing his AK-47 to a bystander who asked to hold it, one of the self-appointed "gun nuts" guarding an unarmed recruiting station fired off an accidental round.

That's bad enough even at its surface, but here's the bigger rub: If someone wanted to shoot up a bank or school or recruiting station or nunnery, what's the easiest way? ASK THE GUARD FOR HIS GUN, SHOOT HIM WITH IT, AND START SHOOTING UP YOUR TARGETS UNOPPOSED.
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