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Fin choice and overpowered upwind issues
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5830

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to be frank in saying that I have no experience with any of the MFC fins, as I've been using Tectonics fins for better than 15 years. However, by comparing the KP-RC with the RC2, what's very noticeable is the difference in shape of the trailing edge. What I would recommend is contacting the MFC folks and ask them about the performance differences between them. In addition, you might go a step further and contact Micah Buzianis, as Dan suggested, and also Kevin Pritchard to get a more intimate take on their design thoughts.

As far as the Liquid Pro is concerned, I would think that it would be a bit looser than the KP-RC and the RC2, but it would be more prone to spinning out. The reason that I say that is that I find the the more swept Tectonic Falcon is more prone to spinout than the slalom oriented Tectonics Goldwing when pressed hard upwind. Lastly, I think that slalom and course slalom fins tend to get a bad rap as not being as easy to jibe as swept designs. The way that I see it, I don't find slalom fins to be difficult or unfriendly at all. In fact, I prefer them.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Methinks, a good fin is a good fin, and a bad fin is a bad fin.
Swept pointers, pointers, blades, you find good ones, you find ones that spin out. Just like in all other shapes of fins.
Problem here has nothing to do with fin design, it has everything to do with sailor ability.
Sailor needs to find the balance between lowest planing speed and highest angle of attack, while staying sheeted in, in balance, and able to hold the rig. Sailor needs to tune his sail for the winds, and know when to use a 6 meter sail when the winds reach 30, before he needs to sail more with an 8.5.
Knowledge is power.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14226

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Problem here has nothing to do with fin design, it has everything to do with sailor ability.
Sailor needs to find the balance between lowest planing speed and highest angle of attack, while staying sheeted in, in balance, and able to hold the rig. Sailor needs to tune his sail for the winds, and know when to use a 6 meter sail when the winds reach 30, before he needs to sail more with an 8.5.
Knowledge is power.

Totally agree. Just about any fin other than a little (22 cm) pure surf fin on a rockered-out sinker wave board will rip upwind just fine for recreational sailing, IF the sailor has planing power and good technique. I'm a piker, but have no problem going miles upwind on current-free lakes on sinker wave boards with a 10-inch B&J fin ... and some recreational sailors I sail with can run upwind and hide from me on similar gear. Now add bigger, sharper-railed boards with huge (anything over 30 cm, IMO), straight fins, and getting upwind becomes even easier IF well powered.

To Zirt's brief technique comments above I'd add "lean forward as though trying to look across the wind or even downwind around the front of your mast, while maintaining speed, sheeting angle, back foot thrust, and downward pressure in your harness to load up the mast foot to maintain a long waterline for lateral resistance." If you can't gain ground quite rapidly while doing all that right, almost no matter where your mast foot is, you need more power and MAYBE more fin.

Mike \m/
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 3rd trip to Maui, while staying next to RickWhidden's house in Paai, I'd sail from the backyard there to Hookipa, sail for an hour ducking Japanese buoys, and sail back to Paai.
At least 3 days, I sailed from the house down past Baldwins, and Spreaks to sail upper Kanaha, and sail back home in about 40 minutes.
Haut 8'8" x 20.5 chop hopper, usually a 4.5 sail and 8" wave fin.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I can't spell Paia....
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bamer



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three comments:

1. Hopefully your sail is rigged correctly. If you are trying to maximize the range of a good 7 batten sail in this size range it needs to be tuned and rigged correctly. Good mast, downhaul accurate +/- 2mm, correct batten tension, progressive leech twist.

This level of tuning is something maybe 10% of sailors achieve.

2. To really sail effectively upwind/ downwind and through a broad wind range (with a sail and board this size) you need an adjustable outhaul.

In general you will flatten upwind and run the sail fuller downwind. A sail too full upwind will want to pull you forward and a sail too flat downwind will be not lock in.

3. There are amazing fins available that greatly increase control on boards this size, especially upwind and downwind. Something with a soft (relatively speaking) designed flex made of molded carbon fiber.

These fins are totally off the radar of most guys on this forum. But they are used by the vast majority of pro racers (irrespective of the fins they endorse), Formula racers, and the majority of slalom racers; i.e.sailors that go upwind and downwind.

Softer fins change the lift vector as they get loaded and they introduce elasticity into the system that greatly helps with control.

These fins are relatively expensive, generally are built custom, have a wait time, and not always available in powerbox. They are also absolutely worth it if fits into your budget.
[/u]
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bamer



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick hijack because you don't answer your PM's,

Dom, can I talk you into testing some gear with me at Rio? I have some new items that need to get shaken down and need a slalom sailor your level to match up with.

I'll figure out a way to make it worth your time. You can PM me back.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2396

PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben, how the heck are you?
Missed getting burned by you out in the water. (Ben is 6'4" and 250 lbs., a good formula for go fast, and worked at BerkeleyBoardsports forever.)
Why not Berkeley, so MikePercy, Anders, Andre, and Chenda can join in? I know of only one guy who uses slalom gear at Sherman... Yuri, BarbaraDarlington's husband.
I"m getting old. Mostly use freeride kit, still have my Slab and JPProSlalom84. G/f is learning to windsurf, so needs to sail Berkeley and Rod&Gun mainly to progress.
We have car problems. My blue Van is dying, her EuroVan is undependable, and her GTI is kinda small for the gear we like to carry.
We did get her a F-4 63 soft, from DougTaylor. We still owe him $$$ for it. Haven't seen him in 2 months.
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adywind



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now the results of my day of testing. It wasn't much testing actually because the Liquid Pro was so much more superior to the original one so I alternated them only once and then I just sailed the LP. It's an awesome fin I strongly recommend for freerace and freeride boards. It's fast, agile and doesn't spin out and if it does because of a sailers mistake / it happened once today after going over a high chop and pushing instead of lifting with the back leg/ it recovers instantly, the RC on my slalom board is much harder to recover. I was with a 9.0 Retro and the conditions were from slogging to few overpowered gusts and from normal chop to a jetskis play place crazy chop in every direction.
The upwind issue- solved as well. Partly because I was confident going high without a fear of stalling the board- wich happened a lot wit the original fin and partly because I put the mast foot at 1/4. I regret not experimenting with other positions, but it was going so nice I just enjoyed the ride and forgot about it.
I also was paying attention to my stance and found nothing wrong with it and the rest of the settings were fine with exception of the a bit too wide spread of the harness lines-wich may have made me to oversheat .
I don't know if a RC or KP RC will be better for my board and frankly I don't really care. I'm very happy with the Liquid Pro and decided to keep it.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5830

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like all your fin problems have vanished. End of story, at least for now.
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