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modulating jibe radius
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
the back hand moves back a foot or so, depending on the rig size. This allows the sailor to get the rig well forward during the carve (which accelerates the carve) as well as having the leverage to oversheet.

If you need leverage to oversheet a normal-sized sail, you've waited too long to oversheet and/or are not driving the mast forward and into the turn sufficiently ... as my tips explain in the troubleshooting section. Oversheeting should be essentially effortless on sails <7 meters.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1138

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I should have typed "leverage to oversheet with control" so you would understand. But then the whole "move your hands back on the boom" seemed to throw you.

Also I'm not sure you know what oversheeting in the jibe means. As this follows your confusion on hand positioning throughout the jibe, I'm thinking you're trying to engage me in a typing contest. I can't compete there.

(edit: meanwhile, Lee/Zirtaeb nails it in his post.)



isobars wrote:
PeconicPuffin wrote:
the back hand moves back a foot or so, depending on the rig size. This allows the sailor to get the rig well forward during the carve (which accelerates the carve) as well as having the leverage to oversheet.

If you need leverage to oversheet a normal-sized sail, you've waited too long to oversheet and/or are not driving the mast forward and into the turn sufficiently ... as my tips explain in the troubleshooting section. Oversheeting should be essentially effortless on sails <7 meters.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:13 am; edited 4 times in total
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2144

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I only oversheet so the sail can have more room to finish the flip.
Rather important, though.
Oversheeting can certainly stall out the sail, useful in overpowering conditions when you're confident and aggressive.
Oversheeting can also be used to DRIVE the board downwind under more power, in medium winds, as used by the slalom racers beginning in 1985.
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coyotewindsurf



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 1257
Location: SF Bay

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watermonkey wrote:
I'm at Coyote Point (SF), about as far out as the first buoy, and upwind to about that breaker with the guys fishing. Let's call it 18-22, on a 5.5...I'd go smaller if I was way out toward the channel.


watermonkey, you've read a bunch of jibe tips here but I'd like to suggest that you're practicing in the choppiest location at Coyote. Lots of shallow water and sandbars make for some pretty uneven conditions. The wind gusts off fisherman's point probably aren't helping either. Go out about a half mile farther and you'll see things smooth out quite a bit.

Good luck.

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1138

PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
Very Happy I only oversheet so the sail can have more room to finish the flip.
Rather important, though.
Oversheeting can certainly stall out the sail, useful in overpowering conditions when you're confident and aggressive.
Oversheeting can also be used to DRIVE the board downwind under more power, in medium winds, as used by the slalom racers beginning in 1985.


Nice and succinct. Thanks zirtaeb!

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
I have the bad habit of opening up the sail when I bear away (from sublaning sailing I guess). This pulls forward, but looses speed soon and I am then in a bad position to try to oversheet. When you overheet a bit, you get less forward drive from the sail and more pull across the board. If you oversheet more, you will depower more the sail.

So from my friend explanations, I also guess we need to extend our front arm across the board (and pull our back arm) in order to depower the sail and feel the inside turn pull.

I also understand from what I read that the board should turn mostly from the feet, helped by the back move of the back hand, and not by an extension of the front arm towards the nose of the board.

If by partial oversheeting you mean sheeting WAY in with the back hand but leaving the front hand and mast pointing forward, yes Ö that does what you describe. It tends to increase power, not what we want if we're entering the jibe with plenty of speed to plane through it, and the LAST thing we want if we're already nearing our control limits. If already powered hard, driving the mast hand forward and into the turn converts oversheeting from bear-wrestling to wafting away a wisp of candle smoke. The difference is beyond dramatic; itís a true make-or-break part of oversheeting if we have waited too long. The more powered I am when I begin my jibe, the sooner in the turn I must oversheet (back hand in, front hand forward and into the turn); otherwise it actually takes muscle power or is not feasible at all, in which cases I swerve back a bit to windward to lighten the back hand load, THEN oversheet dramatically, THEN jibe. The first time you cannot oversheet, then solve the problem by thrusting the front hand forward and in as you oversheet, the rig will instantly feel like a mast and boom with no sail on them, a big bright light will go on over your head, you will turn like youíve never turned before, you will be so enthralled by it that you will forget to flip the sail, and you will get backwinded and fall in.

The next time that light comes on you will know to jibe the sail sooner.

That same combination of oversheeting with the back hand and driving the front hand forward and into the turn will also convert a mild leeward change of direction into a hard slash, if accompanied by appropriate foot pressure. On a board designed to turn, pulling on that back hand as you slash will provide much the same sensation as grabbing a flagpole as you run by it; youíll want your cap and shades snugly fastened.
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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are correctly powered, or somewhat under, will you oversheet less in order to modulate the amount of pull-in from the sail?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="watermonkey"]
jingebritsen wrote:
do you have a short wide board?

no, I'm on a modern FSW.

boardsurfr wrote:
A common misconception for new jibers (at least those not learning in an ABK camp) is that the carve is something you do actively. Unless you are an expert, it is not...

The Cribb video says the same about letting the rig pull you into the turn. I'm definitely not doing that, focusing on rail pressure instead - which is not advocated by Cribb

A modern FSW board is a short/wide board, aka a "stubby", as opposed to the longer and narrower "trad", or traditional.

If we don't "carve actively", aren't we likely to get stuck forever in that common land of stalling at downwind? I suspect semantics are involved, in that while we shouldn't concentrate on lee rail foot pressure at the expense of everything else we must do, that foot pressure is still vital to carving all the way through. My (and others') rail pressure improved by leaps and bounds the first time I forgot about "rail foot pressure" and just thrust my hips into the turn. Letting the sail pull us into the turn does much the same thing, and overlaps significantly with hip trust. Both, whether separately or together, actively (just not so consciously) generate and maintain an active carving input.

A jibe in which we do not somehow actively carve is called "running before the wind", and is best left to venues at which the inhabitants of the nearest land straight downwind speak the same language we do. Smile
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 13282

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
If you are correctly powered, or somewhat under, will you oversheet less in order to modulate the amount of pull-in from the sail?

If underpowered, to the point I'm barely planing even after bearing off to gain speed, every motion must be calculated and performed to minimize hydrodynamic and aerodynamic flow disturbances and maximize sail power. Oversheeting now defeats both of those objectives. In this case I do one of these two things:
1. Power power power power flipthesailasfastasIpossiblycan power power power power, then when planing out the other side I unweight and switch my feet.
2. Jump in and await a gust.

Whether I do #1 or #2 is a judgement call based on whether that next planing gust is 5 seconds or two minutes away. On a big board it doesn't matter; on a sinker it does (to me).

Given plenty of (or too much) power, I oversheet because it eliminates the hard work and dumps no perceptible speed even in rough water.

In between "not enough" and "plenty of" power, each jibe ... and "proper power" ... is a judgement call based on experience, board size and planing power, the consequences of falling (e.g., surf, water temps, restart opportunities, energy level, how dark it's getting, whether a barge is coming, whether supper's getting cold), and more.

Never forget that no matter whose technique is best suited to any particular jibe, individual, venue, or ability, the best investment any intermediate can make in the entire sport is professional jibing lessons. They are worth any cost, far more important than what board or sail we buy.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1138

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
If you are correctly powered, or somewhat under, will you oversheet less in order to modulate the amount of pull-in from the sail?


You will get into trouble if you try to modulate the pull. That is pivot-jibe (nonplaning jibe) thinking. When you tilt the rig forward and sheet in as you initiate the carve, sail pull will increase for a second. You keep tilting the rig forward and increase the sheeting, and in the next second the rig goes light. Then you initiate the foot change and sail flip.

At this point in your jibing career, don't initiate a jibe unless you're powered or slightly overpowered. Either tack or wait for more wind.

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