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Obama vs. the Tea Party--who can lead?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rein

Every situation is different. But, you have made blanket statements about unions and public school teachers. Sometimes the actual statistics should be considered. I have no idea if a similar study yielded similar results in Canada.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I have mostly done is share my personal experiences from which I've formed my opinion. People can take what they want from that.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know teachers tried to do those deals, but I know for sure that exactly one half of the people who do this are builders.
The other half, the clients, are spread out over all other professions, so teachers are likely a tiny part of the problem.
Builders are most likely to suggest this to clients when the client is in a low paying profession and can't afford the bid.
RR knows this because he is one of the rare construction guys who doesn't do this kind of deal.
Faking the paperwork is harder for large builders, so they mostly do this on the way up and get "honest" when it stops being practical.
It's like becoming a virgin again.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB and Rein--what I intended was a very over-the-top critique of the casual and thoughtless ways that we let prejudice creep into our thinking. Of course, my inspiration for this is Socrates, "The unexamined life is not worth living". When caught in lazy and prejudicial thinking, it is time to examine ones life.

My comments were intended both as an indictment of prejudice, and the lack of rigorous and critical thinking--ironically, one of the casualties of cultural wars in the schools. Those who understand the difference between anecdotes-- "my personal experiences"-- and trends understand that there are dishonest people in all walks of life. There are certainly dishonest politicians and businessmen in America. But that doesn't alter the fact that American government is far less corrupt than government in many other countries. Nor does it mean that all businessmen--or in the sorry example, all teachers--are dishonest. Such thinking is sloppy and, well, uneducated. But it is far too common on this forum.

The second problem, again colored by the failure to understand the distinction between anecdote and pattern, is the wholesale condemnation of teachers, teachers unions, and the like. Most hysterical are the comments from Techno, rationalizing his own decision to abandon public education for private education, condemning Texas public schooling. There is certainly much to critique about Texas schools, where spending is very close to the bottom per pupil. Yet according to http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2013/state_report_cards.html?intc=EW-QC13-LFTNAV, Texas rates slightly above the national average, and above California. Surprises me somewhat, as much of the news about Texas education dwells on efforts to teach intelligent design and lack of funding.

The facts thus demonstrate that there is no firm correlation between funding level and performance--but the corollary is not true, continuing to cut funding that eliminates successful programs does impair public education.

There is no doubt that there are bad teachers out there, and teachers that weren't a good fit for us, or for our kids. Leaping from that problem, without understanding it in context, to blaming teachers and teacher's unions blindly is just another example of sloppy thinking. It is the role of teacher's unions to support embattled teachers--as it is the role of the Heartland Institute to lie about global warming for the oil companies. That is advocacy, and has little to do with the facts. The facts are that there are 4 million teachers in this country, and the lack of esteem that society holds for teaching, and the relatively low pay for a given educational achievement, does not attract the best and the brightest to the profession.

Having spent many hundreds of hours in classrooms, and having worked with effective education programs--and teachers--including Reading Recovery, and the new Core Standards, tells me a few other things. Some of the teachers that did not wow me at the start, turned out to be dramatically effective, turning non-readers into kids that were reading at grade level.

Finally, to return to the hijacking of this post to rant about Obama and blame all problems in the Middle East on his "softness", I would recommend this as one of the more thoughtful pieces I've heard about the wisdom of a United States bombing effort.

http://www.upworthy.com/no-matter-what-you-think-about-intervening-in-syria-here-s-one-voice-you-should-hear-out-4?g=2&c=upw8
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This from the man who can't see past his political prejudices.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keycocker,
If you're suggesting I started out dirty, then think again. If there is one thing I take pride in it is my business and the way I started it and the way I run it day to day.

Some might say your comments are prejudicial but I'm capable of differentiating between your personal experience and prejudice.

BTW, I would agree with your "observations". That is the environment I get to compete in. Fortunately for me I deal mostly with a clientele that values integrity and quality over getting things done cheap.


Last edited by KGB-NP on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The life examined does not appear to be in the cards. Sad.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you refering to yourself? I think you've spewed enough hatred towards the right to last 10 lifetimes. Start examining there my friend, and I will do the same.
rigitrite wrote:
conservatard

Here, you can start on one of your own. It looks like this would offend both conservatives and mentally challenged people in one word. Where was your scathing commentary then or did this suit your prejudices well?
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR
Did I mention I am a builder?
You noted that I stated precisely that you run an honest business and are not who I am referring to?
Just checking.to make sure.
I went off wrongly on another poster who was castigating you and I thought he meant me.
I would be surprised that anyone found those facts prejudicial. That is usually reserved for opinions. Perhaps you meant critical of some practices in our trade?
As you say you find the same to be true.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead said:
Quote:
"Private schools better" may be just a suburban myth.


Considering there are private schools that cater to very specific markets, from the mentally disadvantaged, those with psychological problems, average students and gifted students, quoting average performance scores means very little.

Not all private schools are good, but teachers can pick and choose until they fine what works for them and the school. I was in academically, high powered schools. I found my way in because I was recruited to coach and teach. Private schools sell a product, which the public chooses to buy if they think it is worthwhile for their children.

My point is that teaching unions can, and do contribute to mediocrity in education. People that do poorly in their work should not be allowed to keep their job. Something that the "millenniums" don't yet understand. Maybe the liberals don't get it either.


Last edited by techno900 on Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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