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Early planing difference between 11.9 Race and 10.0 FreeRide
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14632

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thorofareken wrote:
It sounds like if I were to unhook before stepping out of the straps, it should reduce going over the front. I will need to re-train myself to only be hooked in when strapped in. Should that do it?

I've gotten it down to only 1 or 2 catapults a session now, but that is 1 or 2 too many on a fragile board.

Padding the mast, boom nose, and/or board nose saves boards very effectively. It dropped my nose crunch rate from once per month to none in 20 years despite plenty of mast whacks to the nose to this day. I do NOT want concern for my equipment to constrain my fun or penalize my mistakes.

Temporarily sailing hooked in but unstrapped has its valid place, IMO. Four places, actually:
1. On a long slog (anything non-planing) it saves the arms, especially on smaller boards but also valid with big sails.
2. If I think I can plane pretty soon w/o pumping hard, I'll hook in and save the arms until the wind takes care of business.
3. If #2 was slightly optimistic, but serious pumping is still not necessary, I'll rapidly fan the back of the sail with the back hand while hooked in.

In both #2 and #3, my front foot is, of course, well forward to unload the tail, but if it's gusty my unweighted back foot is likely to be in its strap in self defense.

4. When entering a jibe, one technique is to bear off under power and let the sail pull us into the proper stance. Sometimes that generates a surprising amount of pull on our arms, in which case being hooked in again saves arm energy ... or catapults us. Smile
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1548

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To support what has generally been said. Stay with the 10.0. I doubt that the 11.9 would give you any advantage in early planing, and if it did, you would not notice the difference.

Pumping is a critical factor in early planing on the big stuff. It takes practice, plus the movement includes the full body, including the legs pumping the fin as well.

I weigh 167 and sail a formula board with an 11.0 in winds between 10 & 15 mph. I can't plane if it is blowing 10 without pumping. I have my back foot in the "chicken strap" (something you don't have) which allows good, vigorous pumping of the fin. The strap is centered on the board with the front fin bolt holding the back end of the strap.
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
To support what has generally been said. Stay with the 10.0. I doubt that the 11.9 would give you any advantage in early planing, and if it did, you would not notice the difference.


Would you say the same thing between an 8.0 and a 9.9? Why does it apply between 10.0 and 11.9? Is it the significant decrease in wind power going from 12 knots to somewhere around 10 knots? Is it just that the 11.9 is a "race" sail?

I know at 200 pounds, the effect will be less than at 170 pounds so I do have that going against me.

Going from 8.0 to 10.0 has dropped my fun sailing wind speed by at least 3 knots or so. I needed about 15 knots with the 8.0, but now start having fun around 12 knots with the 10.0. Won't the 11.9 get me close to 10 knots planing? There are more sailing days at 10 knots than 12 or 15 knots.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No doubt that using a bigger sail will get you planing earlier, as long as you compare apples to apples. (Otherwise, they wouldn't make the bigger size). But aren't you asking about a 10.0 freeride vs. a 11.9 formula?
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thorofareken



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
No doubt that using a bigger sail will get you planing earlier, as long as you compare apples to apples. (Otherwise, they wouldn't make the bigger size). But aren't you asking about a 10.0 freeride vs. a 11.9 formula?


Agreed, but doesn't the additional area more than make up for the high wind "preference" of the race sail? Of course, we aren't talking specifics here. Maybe an Aerotech engineer could say for sure that the VMG only loses 5% on the low end compared to the RapidFire....then the sail area would triumph in this case.

Someone who sailed both compared the two in this thread, but the comparison was about how the VMG was harder to sail than the RapidFire. Direct performance comparisons are difficult unless you have 2 people that weigh the same, sail the same and have everything the same except the 2 sails.

Now maybe that is what it will come down to. Is it worth the additional effort/expense for the VMG to be able to plane between 10 and 12 knots. How many days will it be 10 and 11 knots of wind. If it is less, then it won't matter...I won't be planing on any sail. If it is at least 12 knots, I already have what I need.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meter per meter, formula and race sails are pretty gutless. The actual part of the sail that generates lift is pretty small. The design criteria is to generate power low in the rig. So, say the sail designers want to keep the center of effort at shoulder level. Then, when they make a bigger sail with a taller mast, they have to dump more of the top of the sail. So the taller mast, and the extra sail area up top is just a support mechanism for the extra sail area down low.

My number one suggestion would be, like others are saying, get a better/bigger fin. Also look at your rigging guide and set your outhaul and downhaul at minimum. http://aerotechsails.com/2010_rigging_guide.pdf Photo 'B' is what your top 3 panels should look like. For marginal planing conditions, you could probably manage a higher center of effort that you could get from a non-formula sail. Both are cheaper things to try.
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 2508

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in a sound bite, not 100% accurate, race sails provide great glide and stability at the expense of acceleration. what makes a race sail feel dead compared to a free ride cam or not is the fact that they smooth out any quirks that one might feel on subtle changes in the wind. people talk about sails breathing. an RAF will out gut a race sail, but one has to tune an RAF 3 times more on any given puffy day. and, the RAF will top out and become work way sooner than a race sail will.

race sails that were displaced by double luff's on or about 2004-2005 were the best of both worlds IMHO. i've spent weeks on either, and the double luff is great provided your focus is formula sailing. that's all about upwind or down.

the RF 10 is a great recreation sail. pump it on one of your more powerful boards. DO NOT hook in before in the front strap until you've become more accustomed to these boards.

BTW, the dagger sail is designed for long boards. if one uses it on a short board, beware of puffy conditions and being caught hooked in with out being in the front strap.

_________________
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http://www.epicgearusa.com/
http://powerexmasts.com/?page_id=72
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14632

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After I wrote:
Temporarily sailing hooked in but unstrapped has its valid place, IMO. Four places, actually:
1. On a long slog ...
2. If I think I can plane pretty soon w/o pumping hard ...
3. If #2 was slightly optimistic, but serious pumping is still not necessary ...
4. When entering a jibe, one technique is to bear off under power and let the sail pull us into the proper stance.... ,

a large and extremely experienced expert sailor PM’d this to me:
“when sailing really big stuff (a 6.8 feels small to me), the physics of sailing hooked without straps become far more dangerous. masts are taller, booms longer etc.”
I’ve never sailed anything bigger than a 7.5, so if a 10 is really a different, not merely larger, animal, beware when considering or trying my suggestions above. OTOH, he always advises against hooking in before strapping in on any gear, so I’m not sure which paradigm is driving his concerns. If your breezes are steady thermal sea breezes, my methods may be worth trying. If you get gusts, you should probably tend towards his cautions.

Either way, this Neil Pryde T-Boom Protector may be of use:


I use DaKine’s Formula Mast Pad, but they’re now “out of print”.

Mike \m/
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hilton08



Joined: 02 Apr 2000
Posts: 403

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thorofareken wrote:
Is it worth the additional effort/expense for the VMG to be able to plane between 10 and 12 knots. How many days will it be 10 and 11 knots of wind. If it is less, then it won't matter...I won't be planing on any sail. If it is at least 12 knots, I already have what I need.


In my experience, as the wind gets lighter you have to spend more and more money on bigger sails, masts, booms and boards for smaller gains in your low end planing threshold. To keep the gear reasonably light, you need more carbon, so the cost goes way up as the fun factor goes down in the marginal planing conditions.

At some point as the wind gets lighter you should forget about trying to plane on a windsurfer and consider a different sport altogether (golf, mt biking) or a different type of sailing (Hobie Cat, kiteboard) or just be content to have fun in non-planning windsurf mode on a longboard or sailable SUP.

Depending on where you live, your low end planning limit could be 10, 12, or even 15 knots. For the Gorge, it's often closer to 20.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 5581

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 200 pounds, I have a North 11.8 Warp that I use on light days. It is actually harder to get on a plane than the 11.0 because it is hard to pump a sail that big efficiently unless you are a big, strong, fit pro. In marginal conditions, it will plane, but not go upwind or downwind very well. If that is what you want...

The 11.8 starts to work, as most race sails do, when they are lit for their range. That means, at my weight, at least about 12 mph. The sail is pretty good to about 16-18 if the water is flat, and then will go downwind like a bomb. The operative limitation is water state--flat water means fast and no fear.

The fundamental difference is in sail design--race sails are designed to be flat, and stable through gusts, spilling the extra power that you might not be able to handle. More recreational sails have more horsepower per square meter, but are a bit slower at the lit end, and are definitely harder to handle when a bit overpowered.

So it depends on the conditions where you are. If it is light and gusty, and you are willing to pump to have a sailing day, a race 11 or 12 will work, and won't jerk you around as much as a recreational design. But a recreational 10 might get you planing at the same wind minimum. Steader wind means both sails will work better and be more user friendly.

Fins clearly matter, both size (length) and quality. I use a beefy Kashy 70 cm for my 11 and 11.8. A 66 or 67 works better when the 11 is lit; in those circumstances getting onto a plane is not an issue.
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