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A perfect example of why we are screwed
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 1120

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
Sounds to me like BB has a big problem with unions.

I'm not a big fan of unions but that is only a part of this issue.
Fireman salaries, benefits and retirements pensions are the biggest part of why local counties are going bankrupt.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:

Well technically Obama was alive in 89' so in all fairness he should shoulder some of the blame...

Whew!!

I was worried there for a picosecond that Dubya might have to take it all. But, of course, it wasn't on his watch.
.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Limbaugh blamed Obamas policies for the financial crisis before Obama was sworn in.

Same guy had the largest number of conservative listeners.
He also wants America to fail so Obama would fail.
Lots of conservatives hang on his every word, so there is your first clue why conservatives are losing the respect of the young educated folks who are taking over in America.
Don't worry, just turn Savage up louder.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if any of what beaglebuddy is saying is valid or not. What I do know from observation and with working directly with a city fire department where I spent my last 8 years in a private school as director of Operations is as follows.

Most if not all commercial & school building have fire alarm systems that all too frequently go off by mistake. There are a dozen reasons for this, but the trucks roll for every one, as well as the business or school's representative (me).

Every 911 hang up call requires an on site response by fire and or police (may not be true for every department).

Most, if not all car accidents with injuries have fire and ambulance response.

Ambulances are not stationed in every fire house, so it is common for the fire trucks to respond as well as the ambulances because the trucks are frequently closer to the emergency.

It is generally the practice for all firemen to be certified in EMS before becoming firemen, so a truck response is just as good as an ambulance except for the ability to transport.

I see it as a good thing to have a firehouse near where I live. A quick response when they are needed makes a big difference. The down side is that there is a lot of down time. Where I live now, response time is 4 minutes. Even last night, a truck and ambulance stopped next door for an unknown emergency at 11:00 pm. I haven't asked what happened yet, but it did not appear to be a big deal. No fire and no ambulance transport.

Each cities council decides what is best for their citizens and if we don't like what we have, we can vote and attend meetings to express our desires.

If there are serious abuse issues with fire departments, each city or county has the responsibility to fix the problems. I doubt that there are many cities that are totally in the dark about how their departments function, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While his approach is over the top, and his math is weak, BB does have a point with this comment:

Quote:
I'm not a big fan of unions but that is only a part of this issue.
Fireman salaries, benefits and retirements pensions are the biggest part of why local counties are going bankrupt.


In fact, police and fire service is the leading cost element of most municipal budgets, nearly 2/3 that of Oakland's. And both are overpaid and allowed to retire too early--at 50, at essentially their full salary. Most fiscally responsible Democrats, who aren't running for office and terrified of union opposition, agree on those points. Reform gets to be very difficult. The City Council's in most cities are reluctant to go to war with the majority of their employees. In California, that is compounded by the collapse of the Republican brand as an advocate for responsible governance. Instead, the party, as it has nationally, has embraced anti-tax and religious extremism, and is unwilling to do the hard work to identify politically feasible solutions. Very sad indeed.

BB is wrong, at least partially, on two of the cost elements of increasing overall personnel costs--health care and retirement benefits. While I think the retirement benefit pay scale is ripe for reform, a significant part of the problem with retirement costs lies with the collapse of the housing market, and fiscal irresponsibility of local governments. On the first point, CALPERS, the California retirement agency, lost about 30% of its value in the collapse of the economy in 2008 because it had invested in what turned out to be fraudulent equities. Of course, there was no prosecution for those acts during the Bush administration, and it has taken the Obama administration a long time to go after only some of the bad guys. Local governments bear substantial responsibility. Most split payments into the retirement fund with their employees 50:50, but some paid it all. When the market was doing great and CALPERS told local governments they could forget about their payments for a few years, most local governments put those funds into programs with ongoing responsibility, rather than one-time payments. So when the stock market is doing poorly, they have to defund some programs to pay what they have contracted to pay. Wrong to blame this on the unions, or fire fighters.

The other cost element rising more rapidly than municipal income is health care costs. True for most businesses as well. This was the political force behind the ACA. Whether it was ultimately the optimum plan or not, the fact is that it was based on a Republican concept, was intended to reduce the rate of increase in health care costs, and the Republicans had no credible alternatives except opposition.

Finally, it is unfair to single out firefighters and ignore the hazards of the job, and the importance of response time. We have seen in Oakland that defunding the police force leads to more crime. Costs the society more than it saves. There have been efforts to make firefighting more cost-effective. Most firefighters are now EMT's, and trained in hazardous materials. Some have suggested the mutual aid agreements between local government should be expanded to ignore political boundaries and reduce the overall number of firefighters in an urban area. That has been done to some extent--but the problem is that effective fire-fighting depends on response time. That's the distance covered by a particular station. On hazards, it is much riskier to be a firefighter than a cop.

Understanding and constructive criticism of the forms of governance is a vital responsibility of citizenship. I ask only that you be informed and fair.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I don't know if any of what beaglebuddy is saying is valid or not.

We've seen MANY documented cases of it, with numbers to back it up, in many cities and states ... especially in CA. It's not news to me. If my all volunteer firehouse weren't just 2-3 blocks away and its firemen weren't part of our community (our neighborhood association meets monthly in the firehouse, for example, and it hosts many neighborhood events each year) I'd be more concerned about the abusive practices BB addresses.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how Iso argues--when you don't have the facts, just make it up:
Quote:

We've seen MANY documented cases of it, with numbers to back it up, in many cities and states ... especially in CA.


Fails junior high school logic.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many of us now fear for the furure cohesion of society. It is being destroyed by the ever growing compensation culture where somebody else must to be to blame for whatever happens, and must be sued. (No win-nofee lawyer firms.)

A classic case occurred a few months back which brought the relationship between police and public to the fore, and which, had it been successful, could have changed the whole balance.

The facts: A garage owner, fearing a night time break in at his deserted premises at the edge of town, called the police. A woman P.C. responded. together, with torches, they circled around the premises during which the PC tripped and fell over a standard kerb at the side of the road. She scrambled back up and they continued the search. (No break-in and she left.)

A few days later the astonished and extremely angry owner received a summons from her solicitors claiming that she had been badly injured and was now off work. The claim was that 1) he had failed to carry out a risk assessment before calling her out. 2) He had not provided lighting or warned her about the raised kerb.

The owner immediate contacted all the media outlets, the Chief Constable, and his M.P. (The question was raised in the house.)

The upshot was that, with all the adverse publicity, a senior police officer stated that, the PC in question had fallen below the high standards expected of the police force in the execution of their duties. The summons was withdrawn! (There was more concerning her, but that isn't the issue.)

ommon sense prevailed this time BUT, the way society now seems to be heading (Compensation, gimme gimme) who's to say where we will stand in the future?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom in a democratic society. It must be done with understanding.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say, I'm totally surprised that isobars is giving beaglebuddy a pass on his criticism of firefighters and their retirement and benefits packages. So many of us here have been falsely accused of being against soldiers, police and firefighters when it comes to their "earned" pensions and benefits, but now isobars is apparently looking away like nothing is happening. Why is that?
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