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Sailboarder



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 470

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least, the post got me thinking about stretching. This statement just felt all wrong. In fact it is wrong, without proper context.

isobars wrote:

Stretching is probably bad for our muscles, and impairs performance up to 30%.


Performance in many sport where range of motion is important is increased if proper flexibility is maintained. My personal experience is with competitive fencing. Not enough and too much flexibility are clearly detrimental. Ballet and gymnastics also come to mind...

I would also say that performance is impaired a lot when back pain forces you to stop cycling. When I cycle a lot without stretching the back of my legs, back pain is inevitable. I start stretching and can resume cycling...

However, with a more specific definition of performance, I learned something interesting. It seems that "muscle" performance is impaired by stretching... I tend to believe that.

Thanks isobars!

isobars wrote:

Notice the conclusion of the metastudy you cite:
<<<Our results clearly show that SS before exercise has
significant and practically relevant negative acute effects
on maximal muscle strength and explosive muscular per-
formance, while the corresponding acute effects on
muscle power remain unclear. These findings are univer-
sal, regardless of the subject’s age, gender, or training
status. However, the magnitude of the static stretch-
induced negative acute changes in performance was
more pronounced in maximal isometric tests compared
with maximal dynamic tests. ...
Based on the evidence from this study, we recommend
that the usage of SS as the sole activity during warm-up
routine should generally be avoided.>>>
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can a homeopathic remedy be recommended for heartburn ?

sounds like a dig

but seriously

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14470

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sailboarder wrote:
Performance in many sport where range of motion is important is increased if proper flexibility is maintained. My personal experience is with competitive fencing. Not enough and too much flexibility are clearly detrimental. Ballet and gymnastics also come to mind...

I would also say that performance is impaired a lot when back pain forces you to stop cycling. When I cycle a lot without stretching the back of my legs, back pain is inevitable. I start stretching and can resume cycling...

The books and I have specifically mentioned ballet and gymnastics as exceptions (often at a dramatic cost, of course). Other than those two sports which demand extreme ROM, some researchers literally cringe when they see people doing the usual pregame static stretches. "It's pretty discouraging, really" says Dr. Duane Knudsen, TSU professor of biomechanics long focused on stretching and athletes. He and his fellow anti-static-stretchers prefer bounce stretching, but emphasize that it's too risky for folk to do without direct expert supervision. Their compromise for the real world is, for example, the spider crawl dynamic warmup.

One thing I like about Superslow® resistance training is that it is its own warmup. Ya walk into the gym and start lifting. (Don't ask; the persuasive details are in the BBS book.) I REALLY wish someone would perform a well-designed, properly executed RCT of Superslow® training. The few trials that purport to study it completely ignore its fundamental principles and test something else altogether. Until then I'll just have to fall back on its extreme effectiveness for me and many college and pro individuals and teams, its astounding reduction in resistance training time, its aerobic and anaerobic benefits, BBS's 120 detailed scientific medical and exercise physiology journal publications references, and its virtually nonexistent injury rate (free weights sent some 970,000 lifters to ERs in a 17-year period.)

I can't believe some people actually think I need MORE shit to do to fill my days on injured reserve. DAMN, but I wish I didn't have to sleep sometimes, or could buy a 40-hours-a-day clock. I'm about 50 books behind awreddy.

BTW, BBS cites and discusses the MANY studies proving the fallacies of stretching, cross-training, assuming that the best training for a sport is DOING it, and other misinformed myths. (Looking this stuff up again motivates me to read BBS, its sequel, and PACE again. They are packed with SO much information useful to everyone from world champions to recreational WSers. It's insane and inexcusable, IMO, that some of our resident luddites so fear learning anything that they obsessively undermine the promotion of ideas they hadn't heard before even if those ideas were proved in competition 80 years ago. But I'll bet they know what or who "Snooky" is (is that the broad with the pickles above?)

Someone claimed above that the authors of BBS and PACE are not doctors, just jocks or gym owners. Not that it matters, but their MDs and impressive careers as practicing board-certified physicians say otherwise.

Any prolonged use of a muscle through only part of its range (e.g., the legs in cycling or windsurfing, the back when crouched over a bike) can trigger a cramping or protective shortening response best prevented by taking a few seconds now and then to fully extend the offending muscle. The details are complex, but it has to do with our proprioceptive system including the GTOs. If, in a long session, I suspect or perceive one or both legs are threatening to cramp, I'll back off, maybe even jump in the water, and make sure I literally "reset" the proprioceptive triggers by really straightening out whatever muscles have been used hard but not extended in a long while. Our quads, hams, and gastrocs (calves) during bump and wave sailing, are classic examples of muscles used hard but only in their ROM midrange.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5966

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars, why play the "victim" card here? Facing the truth hurts, but that's not a good reason to avoid it.

Actually, on a number of occasions in this thread, I have offered you a wealth of good advice. You have an opportunity to show some restraint and mellow out a bit. Why continue to be argumentative and difficult?

You know, I really don't have any difficulty at all with what most folks here have been saying about stretching, but you seem to. While you made your point pages and pages ago, you seem to think that repeating it over and over in the ways you often do will ultimately sell it. This is not a battle to be won. Think patience and restraint. Good fruit takes time to ripen.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14470

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandler, when have you ever "offered" me anything but insults you can't back up? (For example: what point have I repeated? When I address stretching a second or third time, I introduce new information in response to a new question or comment.)

Do you actually think ANYONE considers "Why continue to be argumentative and difficult?" anything but passive aggression?

Are you capable of contributing ANYTHING to this exercise dialogue? No? Then why not just let others discuss it in peace? Why does it bother you so much to see others discuss a topic that bores or escapes you?

Only you and a couple of others see it as a pissing contest. The grown-ups see an exchange of facts and ideas. If you're emotionally incapable of dealing with that, why make it everyone else's problem?

I'm trying hard to open this potentially useful discussion of EXERCISE up to the killfiled people and treat them like adults, but my GOD they are making me and the rest of us regret it. That was a bad idea, and I apologize to everyone else for it.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5966

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'm trying hard to open this potentially useful discussion of EXERCISE up to the killfiled people and treat them like adults, but my GOD they are making me and the rest of us regret it. That was a bad idea, and I apologize to everyone else for it."


You're apologizing for what? Problematic people like me? Nobody believes that.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 584

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
I literally "reset" the proprioceptive triggers by really straightening out whatever muscles have been used

The twister of truth strikes again. Of course he does not stretch - he straightens out muscles instead!

isobars wrote:
Someone claimed above that the authors of BBS and PACE are not doctors, just jocks or gym owners. Not that it matters, but their MDs and impressive careers as practicing board-certified physicians say otherwise.

Another example of isobars twisting the truth. Originally, he implied that authors of the books he recommends are professors, which was false. What is true is that the authors of the books are successful business men, and that the books are beneficial for their businesses. As I mentioned before, one author of "Body by Science" is John Little - not an MD, but a bodybuilder and gym owner. According to his description on Amazon.com, he "has a degree in philosophy" and is known "in martial arts and film circles as the world’s foremost authority on the life and philosophy of Bruce Lee". His description on the BBS page on Amazon.com also states that "He and his wife, Teri, own Nautilus North Strength & Fitness Centre". He published a book about "A Scientific Approach to Building Lean Muscle Mass" in 1997 with Peter Sisco, who also does not have an MD. Almost all of Little's books are about martial arts or bodybuilding, and published with other journalists and bodybuilder.

The other author of Body by Science is Doug McGuff. While he holds an MD, a search of PubMed does not show a single scientific publication in his name. However, he "owns the state-of-the-art personal training facility Ultimate-Exercise." So yes, he is indeed a jock and gym owner.

The "Body by Science" book that isobars keeps raving about is written by and for bodybuilders. The measures in the studies that concluded stretching is "bad" also measured things more related to body-building than to windsurfing, e.g. "strength" and "explosive performance". Thinking that these measures are relevant to windsurfing is somewhere between delusional and dangerous. The fact that isobars suffered a huge injury from windsurfing after apparently following the guidelines in this book for a while is simply a case in point.

If you want to be a bodybuilder, follow the advice in BSS, and whatever advice isobars has for you. If you want functional muscles for windsurfing, look somewhere else.

Unfortunately, the strategy "just repeat saying something until someone starts to believe you" seems to be working for isobars. So let me repeat some facts regarding stretching that are actually true:

- Studies that found negative effects from stretching had major flaws, for example stretching without any warmup. The biggest effects were found stretching individual muscle groups for up to 15 minutes! In which sport do you stretch without warmup, and then hold stretches for that long?

- The by far largest scientific study on the effect of stretching on muscle soreness found that stretching does reduce muscle soreness. Measured in percent, the effect is similar to the negative effect found in the studies about "explosive performance" and other measures relevant to body-building and weight lifting.

- Studies have found that stretching does prevent injuries, but the effect found was small and not statistically relevant.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3090
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in all the pages here, I don't see any potentially useful discussion, what I see is point counter point( well you got what what you wanted didnt you)

you are alone from what I interpret towards your support, pity.


no one is buying what your selling

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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 1391

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with above two posters.

Not being a world class windsurfer shouldn't detract from enjoyment or satisfaction of what relatively modest results most of us can achieve.

Not being a red-hot cyclist doesn't prevent the setting of meaningful personal targets, or reaching them.

Not being a concert pianist doesn't prevent 'tinkling' out some interpretation of a sonata by one of the worlds greatest composers.

While engaging in such activities, some of us sense, at rare times, that the elusive purpose and meaning of life is almost within reach around the corner, if only we could grasp and hold it for a few seconds. But, alas, it is all illusion!

But for crying out loud, obsessively reading zillions of articles (while not having an original thought of ones own) on how to do things, and slavishly following them in the vain hope of improving beyond your natural limits (and breaking the body in the process) is NUTS!

Most of us know our limitations, yet reach satisfying (to us) standards despite them. But desperately trying to add just that little extra percent (the law of diminishing returns) in what we think of as life enhancing activities, would, for most, be counter productive.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14470

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to take Chandler's advice this time and not waste everyone's time, especially mine, pointing out and correcting the entire long list of boardurfr's deliberately out of context, misleading, incorrect, incomplete, deceptive, and often completely wrong assessments of BBS, 20 Minutes, and what I said about the books and their authors. Even the two things he said that are true in part are deliberately deceptive when the parts he omitted come out.

Anybody who wants to know the actual truth about any of his claims will have to ask me AND convince me they actually want to know, rather than just to stir the pot. That ... or actually look at the books. What a concept.

Right off the bat, for example, there is a clear and distinct difference between merely straightening a limb and actually stretching its muscles*, and it goes downhill fast from there. The only twister here is BSr, and he'd be fantastic at it if his deceptions were not so easily shown false.

* If merely straightening a limb actually stretches its actuator muscles, you DO need to fix the problem. Stretching MAY be the solution.

GT's entire post is no better. But whatever; don't let either discourage any of you who are interested in the title topic from actually looking at any of those three books (plus the sequel to BBS) and deciding for yourself ... apparently an unfamiliar concept to BSr and GT, and illustrates why he has had to give up aggressive WSing for longboard cruising at such an early age. We can roll over and let life and advancing years drag us down, or we can take the bull by the gonads and slow its charge.


Last edited by isobars on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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