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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3085
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanna talk about me
Wanna talk about I
Wanna talk about number one
Oh my me my
What I think, what I like, what I know, what I want, what I see
I like talking about you, usually, but occasionally
I wanna talk about me
I wanna talk about me

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Defensible numbers and personal experience are called "support" in the adult world. Got better numbers or experience? Let's hear them.

... moving on to folks who have something useful to type, techno900 wrote:
Training theories have become fact and then discredited with new theories. … a certain amount of skepticism should be maintained when looking at new data/theory/facts.

... training theory hasn't changed that much. What has changed is the focus on technique, and the understanding that the human body is capable of high intensity training well beyond what was considered optimal in the 60's. One of the big issues over the decades for swimmers is over training. Not so much over training, but knowing when to "taper".

When new ideas are presented, I usually give them a try. For example, I do believe in stretching, but not without ample warm up first. I do it for range of motion and injury prevention, not enhanced performance. I do avoid ... the standard toe touching ... 68 year old discs can't take the compression they did 40 years ago.

All too many people in our fattening society are content with their current level of fitness as long as there is some mobility. When they finally wake up, it's usually too late. They just don't know how much fun they can have in their 60's 70's, 80's & 90's.

The literature -- and its frequent reversals -- support much of what you’re saying. However, I have to wonder -- and ultimately choose, on the really important medical issues -- which guidance changes are actually reversals vs just hard data replacing outdated and/or unsubstantiated rumors.

Many of the things on that list, let alone the other 500 such items one could compile about the REST of exercise physiology, and never MIND nutrition medicine, etc., are not new “training theories”. Bannister ran wind sprints half a century ago to break the 4-minute mile, Arthur Jones humbled Schwarzenegger with his extremely slow lifting techniques long before the term “Superslow®” got capitalized and earned the ®, and no one -- not even Borger himself -- has ever replicated (the real test of research validity) his claim in the ‘60s that there’s any magic in Ye Olde 3 sets of 10.

Speaking of Superslow® lifting … its advocates are considering extending the recovery time between its whole-body strength workouts to take fuller advantage of its thorough muscle tear-down. Its 12 minutes are so intense that some exceptionally motivated pros gain most rapidly with layoffs well beyond the normal 7 days. They suspect some world-class strength athletes may benefit most from two weeks to a month recovery time between lifting sessions. I need at least 10 days, and my wife improves best at about two weeks, but our recovery is probably driven by age more than intensity even though our intensity VERY often draws comments from trainers and other gym patrons.

A training theory is all smoke and mirrors and hope and change until robustly proven in the physiology lab or in extensive competition. The general sequence is 1. theory > 2. hypothesis > 3. rigorous controlled testing > 4. statistically significant conclusion > 5. causal explanation > 6. peer review, 7. ideally, more testing > 8. accepted fact … until, that is, superior testing proves a different “fact”. I submit that many of the “accepted training theories” being changed are, in fact, simply finally progressing past Stage 2 in that progression.

The vast majority of the items in that list, OTOH, are arguably at or past Stage 7, according to a great deal of research, causal physiological explanations in support of observed statistical correlations, and in many cases replication by other research. Take stretching, for example; even the short discussion offered in this broad book explains why it is of so little, if any, value: in short, it doesn’t achieve anything positive (except in rehab) that lasts more than a few minutes, and doesn’t prevent injury. Weight lifting provides all the stretching most people need, plus many more benefits, especially to the geriatric crowd. And beyond a simple plank ability, core strength doesn’t even correlate (a necessary prerequisite of causality) with athletic performance.

After recognizing overtraining in the 1950s, Arthur Jones invited the world’s leading bodybuilders to his facilities to challenge his promise to put half an inch on their biceps -- close to a year’s worth of gain at their elite level -- in one set of lifts or he refunds the cost of their trip. They showed up, were told to watch TV for three days without lifting ANYTHING, raised hell because all they knew was lifting to exhaustion, reluctantly obeyed, and were astounded to see that extra half inch appear in one set on Day 4. Every one of them was overtrained (fortunately, not the clinical overtraining that takes many months to years to recover from).

Because I use guidance like this list and the science behind it to enhance my exercise on the water and in the gym, I have “skeptically examined” the list and some of its supportive science several times. I’m old enough and active enough to NEED to separate the facts from the theories, and remain quite -- not 100% but close -- confident in using the whole list and much more. I’ve seen too much supportive data and expert opinions from too many acclaimed authoritative sources, and confirmed too much of it in my own experience, to seriously doubt, let alone dismiss altogether, any of these 50 or so principles.

You’re wise to avoid that toe-touch, among MANY other extremely common stretches and exercises. A good way to make that 28-yo spine you mentioned look and feel 68 before it reaches 48 is crunches … even modified crunches. There are several far more effective and much less damaging ways to improve core strength than crunches anyway. Even aside from the spinal degeneration they produce, they do little more of use than burn a couple of calories. I cringe every day at many of the dangerous stretches and exercises I see in the gym, but trainers tell me they’ve learned not to intervene unless asked or unless the risk is both imminent and high.

Obsessive? I’d say, “worth it”, hands down. Anything that reduces my workout time, increases my shred time, and makes me function and feel better and longer is worth the investment of knowledge. What else are we gonna do with our time … watch the Kardassions (is that something like a Klingon?) Drink beer? Stare at sports on TV?
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 566

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I do believe in stretching, but not without ample warm up first. I do it for range of motion and injury prevention, not enhanced performance.

Very good points. There can't be any doubt that stretching helps with range of motion. That can sometimes make the difference, e.g. when waterstarting in difficult conditions.

A big problem with many of the many scientific studies, and exercise studies in particular, is that they first have to narrow down what they measure a lot to get results of statistical significance, but then draw wide-ranging conclusions from this. For example, the stretching studies discussed before looked at (a) a very narrow age and fitness range, and (b) measured "maximum power" and similar measures. Maybe such studies have some relevance for 20-something freestylers who need lots of power for Air Kabikuchis. If you want to believe that it applies to 50 to 70-year old windsurfers going back and forth, that's really just "believing". When authors of scientific studies conclude that static stretching "as the sole activity during warm-up routine should generally be avoided", they play a dangerous game. Such sentences end up re-hashed in press and books as "stretching should be avoided". No more "as the sole activity", no "if maximum power is desired", no "for athletes in their 20s".

Sometimes, such overly extended and simplified conclusions can be downright dangerous. The "fat is bad" theory is a great example. It's simple, and simply wrong. But what an effect it has had!
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 3085
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRAMPS:


http://thehealthyeatingsite.com/remedy-for-leg-cramps/

portion of this is below:


Food Therapy Treatments

If you get leg cramps frequently, especially nocturnal leg cramps it could be due to an electrolyte imbalance.

Low potassium levels can cause leg cramps. Apple cider vinegar is high in potassium and this tonic should help quickly if your leg cramps are caused by low potassium: Mix 2 teaspoons apple cider vinegar, 1 teaspoon honey in warm water and drink.

If the above tonic helps relieve your leg cramps, try to boost your potassium levels by eating more of these potassium-rich foods: apples, bananas, dried fruits, avocado, mushrooms, yogurt, kefir, spinach, tomatoes, mushrooms, baked potatoes and cantaloupe. Potassium works with sodium to control the fluid balance in your body, and they have to be in the right proportions to each other in order to work effectively. If you have a high sodium diet try cutting back on the sodium a bit, use only high-quality salt such as Himalayan Sea Salt, and at the same time eat more of the foods that are high in potassium. Also, make sure you are drinking enough water.

Boosting your intake of calcium and magnesium can also help alleviate leg cramps. There is one super-food that’s incredibly high in both of these minerals, raw chocolate (also known as raw cacao). Here are some recipes using raw cacao. Eat more vegetables, especially dark leafy greens like broccoli and kale, almonds, and raw chocolate (raw cacao) all of which are high in both calcium and magnesium. One quick and easy way to get a lot of all these ingredients in your diet is to have a green smoothie daily. You can make it with almond milk as the base, add dark leafy greens, and raw cacao powder.

Other calcium-rich food sources include: salmon, sardines (with bones), green beans, turnip greens. Additional magnesium-rich foods include: raw chocolate (raw cacao, the #1 source of magnesium), nuts and pumpkin seeds, molasses, spinach, baked potatoes, bananas, wheat germ and seafood.

#2 As crazy as this sounds, if your leg is cramping, squeeze your upper lip between your index finger and thumb for about 30 seconds, according to the Mother Nature site. This reportedly will relieve the cramp



Read more: http://www.ehow.com/way_5263564_effective-remedy-leg-cramps.html#ixzz2mkRqkqHB

I did read some tests with pickle juice,

Dr. Miller suspects that that mechanism is exhaustion, either directly or through biochemical processes that accompany fatigue. Certain mechanisms within muscles have been found, in animal and limited human studies, he says, to start misfiring when a muscle is extremely tired. Small nerves that should keep the muscle from overcontracting malfunction, and the muscle bunches when it should relax. Pickle juice may work, Dr. Miller says, by countermanding the malfunction. Something in the acidic juice, perhaps even a specific molecule of some kind, may be lighting up specialized nervous-system receptors in the throat or stomach, he says, which, in turn, send out nerve signals that somehow disrupt the reflex melee in the muscles. Dr. Miller suspects that ultimately, it’s the vinegar in the pickle juice that activates the receptors. In a recent case report by other researchers, a single athlete’s cramping was relieved more quickly when he drank pure vinegar (without much pleasure, I’m sure) than when he drank pickle juice.

Quote from the original post : Cramps’ best systemic cure so far is a swallow of pickle juice, for unknown reasons.

quote

BEST, BEST >> ???

in those examples I looked at for cramps, pickle juice never came up, only if I lead the search engine to pickle juice for cramps ,
none said it was the BEST

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
There can't be any doubt that stretching helps with range of motion. ... the stretching studies discussed before looked at (a) a very narrow age and fitness range, and (b) measured "maximum power" and similar measures. ... If you want to believe that it applies to 50 to 70-year old windsurfers going back and forth ... overly extended and simplified conclusions can be downright dangerous.

Nothing personal, boardsurfr, but I put more trust in professors whose careers (hopefully) depend on studying, conducting, and publishing valid research than in anonymous internet dudes stating their own opinion that "there can't be any doubt that stretching helps ROM" (or the implication that extra ROM is beneficial rather than risky or even harmful). Their conclusions and physiological explanations, based on extensive research with athletes, recreational weekend warriors, and non-exercisers from grade school to Medicare age, dispute your anonymous claim. If nothing else, you may wish to go go the bookstore and read this book's second chapter, titled "Stretching the Truth".

Or read the first couple of pages of that chapter by searching on "stretching" on Amazon's page for this book at
http://www.amazon.com/The-First-20-Minutes-Surprising/dp/B00CY5AUYA .

Or read
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/reasons-not-to-stretch/?_r=0 ,
titled "Reasons not to stretch".

Or "The Right Reasons to Stretch Before Exercise" at
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/the-right-reasons-to-stretch-before-exercise/

Or "Phys Ed: How Necessary Is Stretching?" at
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/phys-ed-how-necessary-is-stretching/ ,
which includes ...
for both men and women, those with the tightest hamstrings had the best running economy. They also typically had the fastest 10-kilometer race times. Probably, the researchers concluded, tighter muscles allow “for greater elastic energy storage and use” during each stride. Inflexibility, in other words, seems to make running easier.

For years, flexibility has been widely considered a cornerstone of health and fitness. Many of us stretch before or after every workout and fret if we can’t lean over and touch our toes. We gape enviously at yogis wrapping their legs around their ears. “It’s been drummed into people that they should stretch, stretch, stretch — that they have to be flexible,” says Dr. Duane Knudson, professor of biomechanics at Texas State University in San Marcos, who has extensively studied flexibility and muscle response. “But there’s not much scientific support for that.”

In fact, the latest science suggests that extremely loose muscles and tendons are generally unnecessary (unless you aspire to join a gymnastics squad), may be undesirable and are, for the most part, unachievable, anyway. “To a large degree, flexibility is genetic,” says Dr. Malachy McHugh, the director of research for the Nicholas Institute of Sports Medicine and Athletic Trauma at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York and an expert on flexibility. You’re born stretchy or not. “Some small portion” of each person’s flexibility “is adaptable,” McHugh adds, “but it takes a long time and a lot of work to get even that small adaptation. It’s a bit depressing, really.”

It just goes on and on and on.

I stopped Googling seniors and stretching when I encountered this nonsense: "Strenuous or physically demanding exercises cannot be advocated for senior citizens". Plenty of senior WSers can outlast and outbash many full time Gorge rats 1/3 their age.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 5908

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Nothing personal, boardsurfr, but I put more trust in professors whose careers (hopefully) depend on studying, conducting, and publishing valid research than in anonymous internet dudes stating their own opinion that "there can't be any doubt that stretching helps ROM" (or the implication that extra ROM is beneficial rather than risky or even harmful)."


Despite the "nothing personal" comment, many of us have heard isobars pull out the "anonymous internet dudes" slight, but at least this time he used "dudes" instead of "wankers".

Frankly, I appreciated boardsurfr's comments and his words of caution. The latest fad isn't always what it cracked up to be, regardless of what the "experts" say. Similarly, I think that we see a lot of opinions about food and diet plans, and we realize that the actual facts can tell a varied story. The world of exercise and physical health is no different.

Lastly, we must keep in mind that this thread was offered as bait for the classic game that isobars likes to play.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1494

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding stretching, one clear example where swimmers gain significantly from stretching is the overhead double arm extension critical for streamlining while underwater on starts and turns and with dolphin kicking. Most upper body weight training for swimmers works the latissimus muscles, which oppose the ability to reach overhead with great extension.

A year ago, I got back in the water for some limited training to get in shape for a fund raising swim event. I spent some time working in the weight room stretching to regain my ability to achieve a full overhead extension (arms straight, hands overlapped - one on top of the other - with biceps pressed tightly against my head and ears). There was very noticeable improvement gained by stretching. Now when I workout, I continue to spend thirty + seconds with this particular stretch to maintain my range of motion.
This particular streamlining issue is critical for fast swimming and it is not natural.

For what it's worth.

From U2U2U2:
Quote:
Dr. Miller suspects that that mechanism is exhaustion, either directly or through biochemical processes that accompany fatigue. Certain mechanisms within muscles have been found, in animal and limited human studies, he says, to start misfiring when a muscle is extremely tired. Small nerves that should keep the muscle from overcontracting malfunction, and the muscle bunches when it should relax.


I mentioned this before, and from years of observation, early season unconditioned athletes are plagued by muscle cramps that become a non issue later in the season. Electrolytes aside, a well conditioned muscle does not cramp as easily as an un-conditioned muscle.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U2U2U2 wrote:

Quote from the original post : Cramps’ best systemic cure so far is a swallow of pickle juice, for unknown reasons.

quote

BEST, BEST >> ???

in those examples I looked at for cramps, pickle juice never came up, only if I lead the search engine to pickle juice for cramps ,
none said it was the BEST

The same researchers (Tyler and Miller) who advocate pickle juice also collectively dismiss the electrolyte and dehydration theories based on their experiments. Their conclusion: pickle juice works, electrolytes and hydration do not. Violins! Pickle juice is best ... so far. It's all in the Reynolds' book you guys are fighting so hard, in her deeper articles you guys are citing, and in the researchers' literature you're Googling up. (EHow Mom ... really?)

Man, I've never seen so many bibliophobes in my life. Guys, they're just sheets of paper; they don't bite, they don't "do down" like the internet does, and if you're real careful you won't get paper cuts from them. Smile
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14339

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
this time he used "dudes" instead of "wankers".

The latest fad isn't always what it cracked up to be, regardless of what the "experts" say.

this thread was offered as bait for the classic game that isobars likes to play.

And that game is ...?

How do we distinguish "latest fads" from "previous fads" and "old fads"? I choose research, both as published and from personal experience in case I'm an outlier. If you can provide research that trumps this or any other book's claims, please post it for our benefit. We'd learn something useful and you'd gain a little credibility outside your WSing expertise.

And, yes, someone (Capetonian?) pointed out that my understanding of the word "wanker", which I often applied to myself, was incorrect. I apologized for including him in its coverage, and don't expect to use it incorrectly again. To the best of my knowledge boardsurfr remains anonymous, and unless boardsurfr is a female, he and I are both mere "internet dudes", not recognized exercise physiology experts. Drs. Knudson and McHugh thus trump boardsurfr's guarantee that stretching increases ROM (and the implication that extra ROM is healthy), based on theirs and others' clinical research (and evidenced in my own body, FWIW).

Bananas? It would take literally a bunch, as in the huge natural clusters as they grow on the tree, of bananas to provide the quantity of potassium that (apparently) old wives' tale was rumored to take to prevent cramps. We need grams, not milligrams, and excess potassium is dangerous to our heart anyway.
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slinky



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 429
Location: Old Saybrook Ct.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pickle juice is mostly water, salt and vinegar. Vinegar, being a weak acid electrolyte, and salt, also an electrolyte. The rest is water and spice.

Pickle juice is an electrolyte solution.

There is no logic to the author's claim that electrolytes do not work
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