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Nelson Mandela
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 8518

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Although communist leaning, he embraced a more benevolent and decent society. He forgave his foes. He stepped down after 2 terms and embraced democracy when he could have stayed president for life.

So, he is complicated, and heroic, but loved for his integrity. He could have made his country into Zimbabwe, but he chose the high road.

Let's be honest Baja. Both Whites and Blacks have stains on their souls. You are wrong when you say he shouldn't have forgiven the Whites. Like Obama's brother said, "Africa would not be such a nice place if it weren't for the White Colonialists. Obama's brother gets it. You don't seem to.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2321

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A serious question to left wing liberals in one of todays papers, with regard to the universal admiration of Nelson Mandela? (Remember he once turned to terrorism, and his cause was abandoned by Amnesty International when he turned to violence.)

Quote; ...'Anyone looking at the world in the second half of the 20th century could see that the harshest and cruellest regimes on the planet were left wing ones. But the fashionable Western Left will never admit that. They are interested only in Right Wing oppression. That is why there was nothing like this fuss on the death of another giant of human liberation, Alexander Solzhenitsyn. He never weilded anything deadlier than a typewriter, yet he brought down the 'Evil Empire.' When he died in 2008, I don't recall the endless hours of eulogies. Ask yourself why?


Well left wingers. WHY?
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 10847
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
Just to be clear, Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

Although communist leaning, he embraced a more benevolent and decent society. He forgave his foes. He stepped down after 2 terms and embraced democracy when he could have stayed president for life.

So, he is complicated, and heroic, but loved for his integrity. He could have made his country into Zimbabwe, but he chose the high road.

Let's be honest Baja. Both Whites and Blacks have stains on their souls. You are wrong when you say he shouldn't have forgiven the Whites. Like Obama's brother said, "Africa would not be such a nice place if it weren't for the White Colonialists. Obama's brother gets it. You don't seem to.


Just to be clear you did not tell me if the founders of the US who were not being tortured or raped or beat for just looking the wrong way were terrorists for their acts against the brittish just for taxation issues.

How many terrorist acts did the founders of USA commit just to stop a what they decided a unfair tax on tea. again this was not a war on being tortured. So were our founders terrorists or heros.

So was Saddam a hero in your book and should not be punished? Pol Pot a hero in your book? Hitler a hero in your book and no punishment due?

Would Hawaii be be better off if the white colonists had left them alone? Would american Indians be better off if white colonists had left them alone, would Alaskans been better off if white colonists had left them alone?

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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
A serious question to left wing liberals in one of todays papers, with regard to the universal admiration of Nelson Mandela? (Remember he once turned to terrorism, and his cause was abandoned by Amnesty International when he turned to violence.)

Quote; ...'Anyone looking at the world in the second half of the 20th century could see that the harshest and cruellest regimes on the planet were left wing ones. But the fashionable Western Left will never admit that. They are interested only in Right Wing oppression. That is why there was nothing like this fuss on the death of another giant of human liberation, Alexander Solzhenitsyn. He never weilded anything deadlier than a typewriter, yet he brought down the 'Evil Empire.' When he died in 2008, I don't recall the endless hours of eulogies. Ask yourself why?


Well left wingers. WHY?


you right wingers keep moving the goalpost, before it was Reagun that brought down the evil empire with a missile system that would never work. Where I say it was Jimmy Carter by boycotting the Olymics because of the Polish revolt. Or it was George Sorros for backing capitalism in Russia all those previous years. Now I find out it a writer who was even given cancer treatments in Russian prison and was even expelled. My gosh Mandella it would have been a step up just to have shoes on. the trials in Russia were no different than how the south africans did it. Just the punishments seem to be a world apart.

the Russians were not fighting for the right to be treated as a human, they were fighting for taxation with representation. One defy's all rules of humanity and the other is just an economic rule of class.

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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The right wing meme making its way around the internet, and posted here by both BB and Bard, is an example of the slavish devotion of the neo-Birchers to the world view of the Dick Cheney’s of the world. One can object to the carelessness of posting something without attribution, but the tone-deaf and racially insensitive approach is highly insensitive. It is another case where I am so offended by the thinly veiled racism that I will call it out.

There appears to be an organized effort to debunk Mandela, through a right wing meme that is so selective that it presents Mandela as virtually the opposite of what he was—a peacemaker. Now that the right leaning main stream media has picked it up, it warrants a closer look. For example: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/12/06/when-conservatives-branded-nelson-mandela-a-terrorist/
There is no question that the ANC indulged in some violence. But that violence was part of resistance against apartheid, perhaps the most heinous system in the world during the latter part of the 20th century. And many argue that it was in reaction to the state sponsored violence under President Botha, who ordered the bombing of black churches in 1988. But the meme ignores the role of Mandela in establishing the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which fostered forgiveness rather than punishment for the crimes of apartheid.

About 400 people were killed each year between 1948 and 1994 suppressing the movement for civil rights for blacks in South America. The perpetrators of the violence were organized under the government, and consisted in many cases of current and former police officers. One of the more notorious, Dirk Coetze (yes, father of the boxer) died earlier this year. From the New York Times:
Quote:

By WILLIAM YARDLEY
Published: March 9, 2013

Dirk Coetzee, who led a South African police hit squad that killed antiapartheid activists, and who eventually confessed to his crimes as his country began shifting away from official racial segregation, died on Wednesday at a hospital in Pretoria. He was 67.
The cause was kidney failure, a hospital spokesman told South African news outlets.
Mr. Coetzee was a divisive and complicated figure: a convicted murderer and a whistle-blower whose detailed accounts of a violently corrupt police force shed new light on South Africa’s racist government.
His confession prompted accusations that he was an opportunist, out to protect himself when political winds began to change. But he was also viewed as brutally honest in a culture of cover-ups.

“There wasn’t anything he told us that wasn’t true,” Jacques Pauw, who wrote the first articles about Mr. Coetzee’s role in 1989 for a small South African weekly, said recently. “And for that I will always respect him.”


A credible biography describes Mandela’s turn to violence in 1961 http://www.biography.com/people/nelson-mandela-9397017?page=4:

Quote:
In 1961, Mandela, who was formerly committed to nonviolent protest, began to believe that armed struggle was the only way to achieve change. He subsequently co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe, also known as MK, an armed offshoot of the ANC dedicated to sabotage and guerilla war tactics to end apartheid. In 1961, Mandela orchestrated a three-day national workers' strike. He was arrested for leading the strike the following year, and was sentenced to five years in prison. In 1963, Mandela was brought to trial again. This time, he and 10 other ANC leaders were sentenced to life imprisonment for political offenses, including sabotage.


Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years, where he embraced non-violence. To be sure, organized violence was an element of revolution against colonialism in Africa—as it was in the founding of this nation. But to my knowledge, only two large scale non-violent movements have resulted in fundamental change in governance—that of Gandhi in India, and that of Mandela in South Africa. My Congressman, Ron Dellums, and his former aide and successor Barbara Lee, were some of the organizers of efforts to boycott apartheid in this country. Of course they were opposed by the Dick Cheney’s of the Republican Party, and it took many years for the boycott to become national policy.

The hypocrisy of the right regarding violence is evident throughout this forum. Efforts at diplomacy in Iran are belittled as appeasement—by the same Beagle Boy that accuses Mandela of violence—fifty years ago.

There is no recognition here for the breadth of Mandela’s efforts, or the remarkable creation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which had a mission to forgive and heal. To put the state-sponsored violence against black nationalists into context, that Commission received 4,000 applications for amnesty. While most of us know of the systematic discrimination of apartheid, torture and murder were tools in the toolbox. And the regime was changed through a non-violent movement. Pretty much exactly the opposite of the right wing meme. But we don’t expect truth from the right wing ditto heads here.

And GT--support for Mandela--and disgust over racist right wing memes--does not translate to support for the Soviet Union. I've read Solzhenitsyn, in depth. We must struggle against totalitarianism in all its guises. You know logic better than to make that assertion.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baja Dean, - Rubbish!

Mac. I was not denigrating Nelson Mandela, but that article was asking (and partly answering, and yes, I see an unpleasant racial undertone) a legitimate question. Leaving other interpretations aside, Why WAS Solzhenitsyn virtually ignored by the left on his death?

Didn't he bravely stand up for freedom of thought and speech, the basis on which our countries fought the second world war.

Wasn't the oppression he opposed as important?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12858
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solzhenitsyn was a heroic man, if a bit tiresome. I think the left learned their lessons about Russia/the Soviet Union over 50 years ago. I certainly have no illusions. But this whole posting is a thinly disguised racial attack--first on Obama, and then on Mandela. It is poorly informed, insensitive, and highly offensive.

Windoggie's response was best. Wish I had thought of it myself. But the rest has outed the non-thinker, copy and paste crowd on the right.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9470

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Quote; ...'Anyone looking at the world in the second half of the 20th century could see that the harshest and cruellest regimes on the planet were left wing ones. But the fashionable Western Left will never admit that. They are interested only in Right Wing oppression. ..."

"Well left wingers. WHY?"


G.T.,

I don't know why you elected to quote someone in some paper without any real background about the writer and the source. To me, the quoted opinion sticks out like a sore thumb, and it suggests that some right wing ideologue has a stick up his butt about the liberal left. I don't know what your personal focus is in your question, but I'll take the bait and give you my opinion.

First, any left wing examples that could be targeted are not a product of the Western Left. Although some could argue that rise of the USSR was a product of a western thinker (Karl Marx), and that Russia was a western state, but that's a huge stretch at best. Even though the idea of socialism, and ultimately communism, has existed is some fashion in almost all western nations, it never really gained the necessary foothold to win over democracy. In all the major nations where Communism gained a majority, it was a reaction against authoritative monarchical rule where there was a great separation between the rich and poor. Really, democracy was never overcome by communism. So the link that the author suggests between the liberal Western Left and "the harshest and cruelest" left wing regimes on the planet is simply BS.

Now, the suggested juxtaposition of Mandela and Solzhenitsyn in the minds of the Western Left, to include the conclusion that the author reaches, is bogus. In my opinion, much of the heightened recognition and praise that Mandela is receiving right now is attributable to the fact that he was black. The western world still has a lot to atone for because of despicable environment it created through mass slavery, persecution, and the unconscionable discrimination against blacks. While Mandela did have a dark side that once used violence in his cause, I think that he rose above that in ways that many are honoring him for today. He truly was a paramount figure on the world stage, and is unquestionably worthy of the respect and recognition he has received. Those on the right may not like it, but I don't see them in a favorable light. Many folks today still hate blacks with a deep seated passion. It's sad, but true.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following video and article of a CNN interview with Newt Gingrich is worth checking out.


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/07/gingrich-pushes-back-against-mandela-critics/?hpt=hp_t3
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2321

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote;...'The whole posting is a thinly disguised racial attack-first on Obama, and then on Mandela'

Really! From the same article, quote;...'I am sure Mandela himself would have been embarrassed by it. (The great wave of syrupy sympathy.) One of the many good things about him was his modesty. Another, his genuine forgiveness of those who had wronged him. May he rest in peace.'

Yet you turn this into an American centric (you have an inbuilt problem with blacks, we, in general, do not) attack on Obama!!!!!

The part I quoted originally was the question why an equal figure of stature was virtually ignored on his death, by the left?

As SW says... 'and the praise he is receiving right now is attributable to the fact that he was black.' I think that just makes the racist point that the writer was getting at!

Solzhenitsyn was as great as Mandela in his stand against tyranny and oppression, but was white, so not deserving of such lavish praise.

The writer was Peter Hitchins (who is well acquainted with the old Soviet regime, having lived there. No doubt his immediate character assassination will now follow! But I would think he DOES know what he is talking about.
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