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Nelson Mandela
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 13136
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT--on point--Bard posted praise of Mandela, then pissed on Obama. Sort of like telling us about the good Negroes and the bad Negroes. Not so thinly disguised. BB then quoted a right wing attack on Mandela, Bard repeated it. Without any conception of the timing or the overall arc of Mandela's efforts.

Any nationalistic black man in Africa trying to end colonialism would have been a fool to not consider violence. Violence is always a tool of oppression. What the ditto heads here failed to understand in the path that Mandela eventually chose--and the resistance of conservatives in this country to the peaceful efforts of boycott. There can be no question that race was the centerpiece of apartheid.

To celebrate Mandela has nothing to do with any others who fought injustice.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9496

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G.T.,

I have to say that my response was to your 17:26 post, and it was made without the knowledge of later posts. Seemed to me that the quote from the unnamed article was a hack a the Western Left, and our apparent lack of recognition of Solzhenitsyn's life. Maybe I took the author's slight as one against the American Left, hence my response.

That said, it must be remembered that America doesn't truly share in the guilt and responsibility that contributed to the Communist Left, particularly with regard to the tyranny and repression that occurred in the USSR. Maybe it's different in other European nations. Needless to say though, we still carry the heavy burden of what we did as a nation to blacks, and I think that plays out in the current tribute to Mandela and the recognition of his life and struggles.

Certainly Solzhenitsyn is deserving of respect for his fight against tyranny and oppression, but I think that will best be remembered and praised by those in the communist world that know best what he faced and lived with.

Hitchens might not think that Solzhenitsyn got what he deserved from the world, but here in the US, Mandela will have a hard time getting the long term praise and recognition that Martin Luther King does.
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 8611

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
GT--on point--Bard posted praise of Mandela, then pissed on Obama. Sort of like telling us about the good Negroes and the bad Negroes. Not so thinly disguised. BB then quoted a right wing attack on Mandela, Bard repeated it. Without any conception of the timing or the overall arc of Mandela's efforts.

Any nationalistic black man in Africa trying to end colonialism would have been a fool to not consider violence. Violence is always a tool of oppression. What the ditto heads here failed to understand in the path that Mandela eventually chose--and the resistance of conservatives in this country to the peaceful efforts of boycott. There can be no question that race was the centerpiece of apartheid.

To celebrate Mandela has nothing to do with any others who fought injustice.


Your hate speech is beyond belief Mac. Contrasting a man who changed for the better with a man who is stuck in the past was my purpose. Race has nothing to do with it.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2330

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if nothing else S.W., it shows how easily people like us, from different countries and perspectives, can so easily become at cross purposes.

A world without political or racial bias (a pipe dream) would indeed be a pleasant one.

(But I won't mention religion!) ( Rolling Eyes )
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3478

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler,

Let's examine what I said about Obama and Guantanamo:
Quote:
On the other hand, if he could have closed Guantanamo by executive order, then he was ill informed or na´ve about what Guantanamo was all about, or he was just na´ve about executive orders. Either way, he looks like a fool.


What was Obama's motive in saying he will close Guantanamo? Clearly political gain and that he thought there was a better way to detain and interrogate terrorists (I am giving him the benefit of doubt).

In my opinion, he as Commander and Chief could have closed Guantanamo, but was he really so na´ve (as you state) that he couldn't see the consequences of doing so? Anyone with half a brain could see that there would be untold issues regarding what to do with hundreds of terrorists if you close Guantanamo. So in my opinion, his push to close it was solely for left wing political points and the upcoming election. I think he looks foolish now that he can't or won't keep his pledge to close Guantanamo. You obviously see it differently, which is no surprise.

You continually use the "hate & liar card", which is simply grasping at straws. I despise any and all politicians that make bogus promises solely for political gain, period. Same with "if you like your plan, you can keep it". I know that it is pretty challenging for the left to explain away Obama's faults, but na´ve and ill informed just doesn't cut if from the President of our country. We all really know why he said what he said, no matter how you try to dance around it.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:

You continually use the "hate & liar card" ... I despise any and all politicians that make bogus promises solely for political gain, period. Same with "if you like your plan, you can keep it". I know that it is pretty challenging for the left to explain away Obama's faults...

Techno,

You miss the fundamental point.

Any time someone highlights Obama's errors or faults (whether trivial or significant), folks here scream, "He's a liar, he's incompetent." Then, when someone highlights his genuine accomplishments, the same people here scream, "It wasn't worth doing" or "He didn't do it right" or "he didn't do it, the military did it" or "he lied" or "Bush gets the credit."

So, win or lose, certain people here ALWAYS fault Obama, no matter what.

At some point, thoughtful, open-minded readers see that no matter what the President does, the same far righties spout off with their "liar, liar" hate language. Over and over and over. And then some more.

But many know and even some republicans will admit that he HAS done good stuff. The economy is improving, he's reducing deficits, jobs are recovering, the auto industry's doing OK, US manufacturing is increasing.

Is everything perfect? Not by a long shot. But things are FAR better than what Bush/Cheney and the war-mongering neo-cons handed the American public in January 2009.

And that contrast leads thoughtful readers to conclude that there's something about this man that you cannot tolerate -- but you also cannot openly state.

What could that be?
.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 13136
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bard says:

Quote:
Your hate speech is beyond belief Mac.


Bard--if people consistently and repeatedly tell you that your accusations against Obama are racially insensitive if not clearly bigoted--one thing you might need to contemplate. They're speaking the truth.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3478

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what a surprise. Now it's just a not so subtle "play the race card" from pueno.

Simply, I don't believe in, or want to follow liberal Democrats, regardless of race or sex. I didn't like Clinton's politics either. If Hillary gets elected, then it will be the "woman hater" card for four years.

Talk about talking points - liberals are drowning in them.

IT'S THEIR POLITICAL BELIEVES!

You missed the fundamental point, and that is politicians say and promise things to get elected or sell/pass a bill (ACA), when they know that they are incorrect or unachievable.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
... then it will be the "woman hater" card for four years.

Are you starting your opposition early? A preemptive strike? Will we get four more years of Benghazi crap?


techno900 wrote:

IT'S THEIR POLITICAL BELIEVES!

Well, OK, that's cool -- though I think you meant "beliefs."

So, if you object to political beliefs, then argue political beliefs. Don't argue based on the contrived BS that comes from Fox and Limbaugh.

Try giving Obama credit for his actual accomplishments, particularly those that benefit you.
.


Last edited by pueno on Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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windoggie



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2721

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno, just what is it you want from a politician?
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