Obama's Epic Failures

mrgybe · Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180

This is what you wrote and what I read.......

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935

mac · Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject:

Amazing how this has shifted from the moral implications of torture to how often the CIA lied to Congress, and how balanced the report to the public about those lies should be. At least we put to rest the myth of infallibility of the Pope in matters of spiritual guidance--we can now trust Dick Cheney and mrgybe on that score. And we have an inside expert to boot--Navy intelligence is telling mrgybe non-classified things about the CIA briefings over dinner.

Glad you cleared all of that up.

swchandler · Joined: 08 Nov 1993 Posts: 10588

"I think they were wrong, they produced a sloppy product and they maligned people dedicated to our protection to cover their own self interest."

One wonders how you feel about the fact that all the tapes evidencing questionable methods of interrogation were conveniently destroyed by CIA intelligence officer Jose Rodriquez. Is he one of those much maligned folks that is totally dedicated to truth, justice and the American way, or was he more dedicated to his own self interest? In my view, if the situation morphs into a criminal prosecution, he should be on the initial short list to be found culpable because it's highly likely that he has a whole lot to hide. Would he be one to rat out his superiors for a plea deal?

No worries really, Republicans won't be encouraging criminal prosecution activities in the new Congress in 2015.

mrgybe · Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180

I wonder how many of the parents of the 132 children slaughtered by the Taliban in Pakistan today, would have sanctioned pouring water over the heads of the barbaric perpetrators, if doing so would have saved their child? Or would they have shared the view of so many here that such an act is simply too brutal to be contemplated? So easy to be sanctimonious in the abstract........and with the benefit of hindsight.

mac · Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:41 am Post subject:

That is bad reasoning as well as horseshit. Water boarding a captive is not the same as fighting a free man. But then mrgybe knows sanctimony--but not ethics. Studied under Cheney.

Some might say that the revenge efforts of the United States, which have killed several hundred thousand in revenge for 3000, have destabilized Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria, and thus is indirectly responsible for those deaths. But torture will always be justified by people with no moral compass.

swchandler · Joined: 08 Nov 1993 Posts: 10588

The way that I look at it, at the time of the interrogations waterboarding was legal, as long as it adhered to what was approved. So, why did Rodriquez destroy the tapes? Is it likely that interrogations got more aggressive than what had been approved? Simple questions that some would prefer not to ask. It happened so long ago. Let's forget it and move on, right?

LHDR · Joined: 22 Jun 2007 Posts: 528

mrgybe · Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180

DanWeiss · Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 2296 Location: Connecticut, USA

mrgybe, we are a nation founded on principals of justice, many of which evolved and even changed across generations -largely on greater understanding of the value of self and others as individuals. Flawed as it may be, our criminal justice system expressly rejects eye-for-an-eye specifically because of the perception of hypocrisy. We unfailingly try to administer justice with an even hand, including by applying the concept of mercy. Even when a criminal commits the most heinous acts, our society punishes without repeating the same horror upon the convicted. The justice system is imperfect but we try to improve.

Two points follow. Torture in the ticking time-bomb hypothetical is merely an exercise of the mind and ethics, but hardly a common situation.

Second, torture as punishment not only runs contrary to our societal foundation and what I presume is a shared religious belief structure, it also violates our international promises and runs contrary to our history. Again, we executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding Americans because we determined waterboarding is an act of torture.

Free men are measured not by unflagging support of immoral action but the ability and stones to stand up for what is normatively correct -the moral right. Are we free if we say OK to torture?