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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598
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 Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: |
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I speak Jibe. He means that no matter what I provide he will either ignore it or take a phrase out of context.
In his world that is called thoughtful discussion when he does it and BS when others do it.
This time Jibe gets to ignore my request for a citation that says cold days now and then "prove" something about massive global energy systems.
In return I will give jibe a citation that explains the difference between weather and climate. Mac and others have provided several, but reading other people's posts for understanding has always troubled him. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| ........or put more succinctly, he doesn't have a citation to offer. Just made it up. |
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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17748
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| jibe's standard response to a rebuttal to his lies pimping for the carbon industry is "too long". His second response is of the nature that he has forgotten more than we'll ever know and he is too important to explain it to us. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| keycocker wrote: | | If Gybe had class he could apologize now |
Indeed I do apologize since my inquiry was obviously not sufficiently clear. I was hoping you could share your broad understanding of the topic by providing support for your assertion that global warming models anticipated frequent and extended periods of record cold of that type that has been experienced here, in Europe and elsewhere. The articles you attached, riveting though they may be, merely attempt to explain why the weather is nothing close to that which we were all led to believe it would be. I'm sure you have something better from leading climate scientists who spoke with authority on the subject.........like these quotes from 2000, for example, from a couple of top scientists in the field.....
According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event. Children just aren't going to know what snow is," he said.
David Parker, at the Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research in Berkshire, says ultimately, British children could have only virtual experience of snow. Via the internet, they might wonder at polar scenes - or eventually "feel" virtual cold.
East Anglia CRU..... "The Climatic Research Unit is widely recognised as one of the world's leading institutions concerned with the study of natural and anthropogenic climate change. Dr. Viner is a contributor to the IPCC assessments.
Haley Centre........"As one of the world's leading centres for climate science research, our scientists make significant contributions to peer-reviewed literature and to a variety of climate science reports, including the Assessment Report of the IPCC. " David Parker is head of climate monitoring. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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From
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/11/18/if-97-of-scientists-say-global-warming-is-real-100-say-it-has-nearly-stopped/
comes
Excerpt:
"We identified papers published between 2009 and 2014 and currently cataloged in the Web of Science database that included either the term “pause” or “hiatus” or “slowdown” and subsequently, the terms “global” and “temperature.” ...Of the ... 35 [relevant] papers, every single one of them acknowledged in some way that a hiatus, pause, or slowdown in global warming was occurring. ... This is in direct opposition to the IPCC’s contention that global warming is accelerating, and supports arguments that the amount of warming that will occur over the remainder of the 21st century as a result of human fossil fuel usage will be at the low end of the IPCC projections, or even lower." |
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it's time to revisit the list of all things that global warming causes.
Every one of these things has a link to the original story, but to get to the links, you have to click on the source at the bottom.
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A (Not Quite) Complete List Of Things Supposedly
Caused By Global Warming
Acne , agricultural land increase , Afghan poppies destroyed , Africa devastated, Africa in conflict, African aid threatened, African summer frost , aggressive weeds , air pressure changes , airport malaria , Agulhas current , Alaska reshaped, moves , allergy season longer , alligators in the Thames , Alps melting , Amazon a desert , American dream end , amphibians breeding earlier (or not) , anaphylactic reactions to bee stings , ancient forests dramatically changed , animals head for the hills, animals shrink , Antarctic grass flourishes , Antarctic ice grows , Antarctic ice shrinks , Antarctic sea life at risk, anxiety treatment , algal blooms , archaeological sites threatened , Arab Spring , Arctic bogs melt , Arctic in bloom , Arctic ice free , Arctic ice melt faster , Arctic lakes disappear , Arctic tundra to burn , Arctic warming (not), Atlantic less salty , Atlantic more salty, atmospheric circulation modified , attack of the killer jellyfish , avalanches reduced , avalanches increased , Baghdad snow , Bahrain under water , bananas grow , barbarisation , beer shortage , beetle infestation , bet for $10,000, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects , billion homeless , billions face risk , billions of deaths , bird distributions change , bird loss accelerating , birds shrinking , bird strikes , bird visitors drop , birds confused , birds decline (Wales) , birds driven north , birds return early , bittern boom ends , blackbirds stop singing , blackbirds threatened , Black Hawk down , blood contaminated , blue mussels return , bluetongue , brain eating amoebae , brains shrink , bridge collapse (Minneapolis), Britain one big city , Britain Siberian , brothels struggle , brown Ireland , bubonic plague , budget increases , Buddhist temple threatened , building collapse , building season extension , bushfires , business opportunities , business risks, butterflies move north, camel deaths , cancer deaths in England,cannibalism, cannibalism again , caterpillar biomass shift, cave paintings threatened , childhood insomnia, Cholera , circumcision in decline , cirrus disappearance , civil unrest , cloud increase , coast beauty spots lost , cockroach migration, coffee threatened , cold climate creatures survive , cold spells (Australia) , cold wave (India) , computer models , conferences , conflict , conflict with Russia , consumers foot the bill , coral bleaching, coral fish suffer , coral reefs dying , coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight, Cabbage Shortage , cost of trillions , cougar attacks, crabgrass menace, cradle of civilisation threatened , creatures move uphill, crime increase , crocodile sex, crops devastated , crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems , curriculum change , cyclones (Australia), danger to kid's health , Darfur , Dartford Warbler plague , death rate increase (US) , deaths to reach 6 million, Dengue hemorrhagic fever , depression , desert advance , desert retreat , destruction of the environment , disappearance of coastal cities, disasters , diseases move from animals to humans , diseases move north , dog disease , Dolomites collapse , dozen deadly diseases , drought, ducks and geese decline , dust bowl in the corn belt , early marriages , early spring , earlier pollen season , Earth biodiversity crisis , Earth dying , Earth even hotter , Earth light dimming , Earth lopsided, Earth melting , Earth morbid fever , Earth on fast track , Earth past point of no return , Earth slowing down , Earth spins faster, Earth to explode,Earth's poles shift, earth upside down , earthquakes , earthquakes redux , earthquakes redux 2 , Egypt revolt , El Niño intensification , end of the world as we know it , erosion , emerging infections, encephalitis, English villages lost , equality threatened , Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, eutrophication , evolution accelerating , expansion of university climate groups,
extinctions (human , civilisation, logic , Inuit , smallest butterfly , cod, ladybirds , pikas , polar bears, possums , walrus, toads , plants , salmon , trout , wild flowers , woodlice , a million species , half of all animal and plant species, mountain species , not polar bears , barrier reef , leaches , salamanders , tropical insects)
experts muzzled , extreme changes to California , fading fall foliage , fainting , famine, farmers benefit , farmers go under , farm output boost , fashion disaster , fever , figurehead sacked , fir cone bonanza , fish bigger , fish catches drop , fish downsize, fish catches rise , fish deaf, fish get lost , fish head north , fish stocks at risk , fish stocks decline , five million illnesses, flames stoked , flesh eating disease , flood patterns change , floods, floods of beaches and cities , flood of migrants, flood preparation for crisis , Florida economic decline , flowers in peril , fog (more) in San Francisco , fog (less) in San Francisco , food poisoning, food prices rise , food prices soar , food security threat (SA), football team migration , footpath erosion, forest decline , forest expansion , frog with extra heads , frostbite , frost damage increased , frosts , fungi fruitful , fungi invasion , games change , Garden of Eden wilts , geese decline in Hampshire , genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed , giant oysters invade, giant pythons invade , giant squid migrate , gingerbread houses collapse , glacial earthquakes , glacial retreat, glacial growth , glacier grows (California) , glacier wrapped , global cooling , global dimming, glowing clouds , golf course to drown , golf Masters wrecked , grandstanding , grasslands wetter , Great Barrier Reef 95% dead , Great Lakes drop , great tits cope , greening of the North , Grey whales lose weight , Gulf Stream failure , habitat loss , haggis threatened , Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harmful algae , harvest increase , harvest shrinkage , hay fever epidemic , health affected , health of children harmed, health risks, heart disease, heart attacks and strokes (Australia), heat waves, hibernation affected, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, high court debates, HIV epidemic, homeless 50 million, hornets, horses shrink, human development faces unprecedented reversal, human fertility reduced, human health risk , human race oblivion , hurricanes , hurricane reduction , hurricanes fewer , hurricanes not , hydropower problems , hyperthermia deaths , ice age , ice sheet growth , ice sheet shrinkage, icebergs , illegal immigration , illness and death , inclement weather , India drowning , infrastructure failure (Canada) , industry threatened , infectious diseases, inflation in China , insect explosion, insurance premium rises , Inuit displacement , Inuit poisoned , Inuit suing , invasion of cats , invasion of crabgrass , invasion of herons , invasion of jellyfish , invasion of king crabs , invasion of midges, island disappears , islands sinking , itchier poison ivy , jellyfish explosion , jets fall from sky , jet stream drifts north , Kew Gardens taxed , kidney stones , kidney stones again , killer cornflakes , killing us , kitten boom , koalas under threat , krill decline , lake and stream productivity decline, lake empties , lake shrinking and growing , landslides , landslides of ice at 140 mph , lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers' income increased (surprise surprise!) , lawyers want more , legionnaires' surge , lives saved , Loch Ness monster dead , Locust plagues suppressed , Longer wprk breaks , Lopsided Earth , lush growth in rain forests, Malaria, mammoth dung melt , mango harvest fails , Maple production advanced , Maple syrup shortage , marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, Meaching (end of the world) , Mediterranean rises , megacryometeors , Melanoma , Melanoma decline , meteors from space , methane emissions from plants , methane burps, methane runaway , melting permafrost , Middle Kingdom convulses , migration , migration difficult (birds) , migratory birds huge losses , microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly , minorities hit, monkeys on the move , Mont Blanc grows, monuments imperiled, moose dying, more bad air days, more research needed, mortality increased, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountaineers fears, mountains break up , mountains green and flowering, mountains taller , mortality lower , murder higher , Myanmar cyclone , narwhals at risk , National security implications , native wildlife overwhelmed , natural disasters quadruple , new islands , next ice age , NFL threatened, Nile delta damaged , noctilucent clouds , no effect in India, Northwest Passage opened, nuclear plants bloom, oaks dying , oaks move north, ocean acidification , ocean acidification faster , ocean dead zones unleashed , ocean deserts expand , ocean waves speed up , oceans noisier , opera house to be destroyed , outdoor hockey threatened, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise , Pacific dead zone , penguin chicks frozen, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks , pests increase, phenology shifts , plankton blooms , plankton destabilised , plants lose protein , plants march north, plants move uphill, polar bears aggressive , polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears deaf, polar bears drowning, polar bears eating themselves, polar tours scrapped , popcorn rise , porpoise astray , profits collapse, prostitution, psychiatric illness, puffin decline, radars taken out , railroad tracks deformed , rainfall increase , rape wave , refugees , reindeer endangered , release of ancient frozen viruses , resorts disappear , rice threatened, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill , rioting and nuclear war, Rise and Fall of Rome, river flow impacted , rivers raised , roads wear out , robins rampant, rocky peaks crack apart , roof of the world a desert, rooftop bars , Ross river disease , ruins ruined, Russia under pressure , salinity reduction , salinity increase , Salmonella, Salmon Decline, satellites accelerate , school closures , sea level rise , sea level rise faster , seals mating more , sewer bills rise , severe thunderstorms , sex change, sexual promiscuity , shark attacks , sharks booming , sharks moving north , sheep shrink , shop closures , short-nosed dogs endangered , shrinking ponds, shrinking shrine , ski resorts threatened , skin cancer , slow death, smaller brains , smog , snowfall increase , snowfall heavy, soaring food prices, societal collapse , soil change , songbirds change eating habits , sour grapes , space problem , spectacular orchids , spiders invade Scotland , squid aggressive giants , squid population explosion , squid tamed , squirrels reproduce earlier , stingray invasion , storms wetter , stormwater drains stressed , street crime to increase, subsidence , suicide , swordfish in the Baltic , Tabasco tragedy , taxes , tectonic plate movement , teenage drinking , terrorism , threat to peace , ticks move northward (Sweden) , tides rise , tigers eat people , tomatoes rot , tornado outbreak , tourism increase , trade barriers, trade winds weakened , traffic jams , transportation threatened , tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed , trees in trouble , trees less colourful , trees more colourful , trees lush , tropics expansion , tropopause raised , truffle shortage, truffles down , turtles crash , Turbulence in air travel , turtle feminised , turtles lay earlier , UFO sightings , UK coastal impact , UK Katrina , uprooted - 6 million , Vampire bats , Vampire moths , Venice flooded , violin decline , volcanic eruptions , volcanic eruptions redux , Iceland volcano eruption, walrus pups orphaned , walrus stampede , war , war between US and Canada , wars over water , wars sparked , wars threaten billions , wasps , water bills double , water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress , weather out of its mind , weather patterns awry , Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever , whales lose weight , whales move north , whales wiped out , wheat yields crushed in Australia , wildfires, wind shift , wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry , wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (France), wine - more English wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English , wine - England too hot , wine -German boon , wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa) , wine stronger , winters in Britain colder , winter in Britain dead , witchcraft executions , wolves eat more moose , wolves eat less, workers laid off , World at war , World War 4 , World bankruptcy , World in crisis , World in flames , Yellow fever.
and all on 0.006 deg C per year!
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming2.html |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17748
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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A no brainer for the Kochsters. Global warming models have predicted erratic weather for a long time. As usual, mrgybe spins an outlier to a complete lie and Isobars cites those paid by the carbon industry. For some real information, try Princeton:
| Quote: | The first climate study to focus on variations in daily weather conditions has found that day-to-day weather has grown increasingly erratic and extreme, with significant fluctuations in sunshine and rainfall affecting more than a third of the planet.
Princeton University researchers recently reported in the Journal of Climate that extremely sunny or cloudy days are more common than in the early 1980s, and that swings from thunderstorms to dry days rose considerably since the late 1990s. These swings could have consequences for ecosystem stability and the control of pests and diseases, as well as for industries such as agriculture and solar-energy production, all of which are vulnerable to inconsistent and extreme weather, the researchers noted.
The day-to-day variations also could affect what scientists can expect to see as the Earth's climate changes, according to the researchers and other scientists familiar with the work. Constant fluctuations in severe conditions could alter how the atmosphere distributes heat and rainfall, as well as inhibit the ability of plants to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, possibly leading to higher levels of the greenhouse gas than currently accounted for.
Existing climate-change models have historically been evaluated against the average weather per month, an approach that hides variability, explained lead author David Medvigy, an assistant professor in the Department of Geosciences at Princeton. To conduct their analysis, he and co-author Claudie Beaulieu, a postdoctoral research fellow in Princeton's Program in Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, used a recently developed computer program that has allowed climatologists to examine weather data on a daily level for the first time, Medvigy said.
"Monthly averages reflect a misty world that is a little rainy and cloudy every day. That is very different from the weather of our actual world, where some days are very sunny and dry," Medvigy said.
"Our work adds to what we know about climate change in the real world and places the whole problem of climate change in a new light," he said. "Nobody has looked for these daily changes on a global scale. We usually think of climate change as an increase in mean global temperature and potentially more extreme conditions -- there's practically no discussion of day-to-day variability."
Medvigy fig 3
Princeton researchers found for the first time that day-to-day weather conditions have become more erratic in the past generation. Days have increasingly fluctuated between sunny and dry, and cloudy and rainy with little in-between, which can have negative consequences for ecosystems, plants, solar-energy production and other factors that depend upon consistent weather. Green areas on this map indicate an increase in day-to-day solar radiation (sunshine) variability between 1984 and 2007; pink indicates a decrease. The portion over the Indian Ocean is voided due to a lack of consistent data. (Image courtesy of David Medvigy)
The Princeton findings stress that analysis of erratic daily conditions such as frequent thunderstorms may in fact be crucial to truly understanding the factors shaping the climate and affecting the atmosphere, said William Rossow, a professor of earth system science and environmental engineering at the City College of New York.
"It's important to know what the daily extremes might do because we might care about that sooner," said Rossow, who also has studied weather variability. He had no role in the Princeton research but is familiar with it.
Rossow said existing climate-change models show light rain more frequently than they should and don't show extreme precipitation. "If it rains a little bit every day, the atmosphere may respond differently than if there's a really big rainstorm once every week. One of the things you find about rainstorms is that the really extreme ones are at a scale the atmosphere responds to," he said.
Although climate-change models predict future changes in weather as the planet warms, those calculations are hindered by a lack of representation of day-to-day patterns, Rossow said.
"If you don't know what role variability is playing now, you're not in a very strong position for making remarks about how it might change in the future," he said. "We're at a stage where we had better take a look at what this research is pointing out."
Medvigy and Beaulieu determined sunshine variation by analyzing fluctuations in solar radiation captured by the International Satellite Cloud Climatology Project from 1984 to 2007. To gauge precipitation, the researchers used daily rainfall data from the Global Precipitation Climatology Project spanning 1997 to 2007.
Medvigy and Beaulieu found that during those respective periods, extremes in sunshine and rainfall became more common on a day-to-day basis. In hypothetical terms, Medvigy said, these findings would mean that a region that experienced the greatest increase in sunshine variability might have had partly cloudy conditions every day in 1984, but by 2007 the days would have been either sunny or heavily cloudy with no in-between. For rainfall, the uptick in variation he and Beaulieu observed could be thought of as an area experiencing a light mist every day in 1997, but within ten years the days came to increasingly fluctuate between dryness and downpour.
The researchers observed at least some increase in variability for 35 percent of the world during the time periods analyzed. Regions such as equatorial Africa and Asia experienced the greatest increase in the frequency of extreme conditions, with erratic shifts in weather occurring throughout the year. In more temperate regions such as the United States, day-to-day variability increased to a lesser degree and typically only seasonally. In the northeastern United States, for instance, sudden jumps from sunny to bleak days became more common during the winter from 1984 to 2007.
In the 23 years that sunshine variability rose for tropical Africa and Asia, those areas also showed a greater occurrence of towering thunderstorm clouds known as convective clouds, Medvigy said. Tropical areas that experienced more and more unbalanced levels of sunshine and rainfall witnessed an in-kind jump in convective cloud cover. Although the relationship between these clouds and weather variations needs more study, Medvigy said, the findings could indicate that the sunnier days accelerate the rate at which water evaporates then condenses in the atmosphere to form rain, thus producing heavy rain more often.
Storms have lasting effect on daily weather patterns
Although the most extreme weather variations in the study were observed in the tropics, spurts of extreme weather are global in reach, Rossow said. The atmosphere, he said, is a fluid, and when severe weather such as a convective-cloud thunderstorm "punches" it, the disturbance spreads around the world. Weather that increasingly leaps from one extreme condition to another in short periods of time, as the Princeton research suggests, affects the equilibrium of heat and rain worldwide, he said.
"Storms are violent and significant events — while they are individually localized, their disturbance radiates," Rossow said.
"Wherever it's raining heavily, especially, or variably is where the atmosphere is being punched. As soon as it is punched somewhere in the tropics it starts waves that go all the way around the planet," he said. "So we can see waves coming off the west Pacific convection activity and going all the way around the planet in the tropical band. The atmosphere also has the job of moving heat from the equator to the poles, and storms are the source of heat to the atmosphere, so if a storm's location or its timing or its seasonality is altered, that's going to change how the circulation responds."
These sweeping atmospheric changes can interact with local conditions such as temperature and topography to skew regular weather patterns, Rossow said.
"Signals end up going over the whole globe, and whether they're important in a particular place or not depends on what else is happening," he said. "But you can think of storms as being the disturbances in an otherwise smooth flow. That's why this is a climate issue even though we're talking about daily variability in specific locations."
Medvigy fig 5
From 1997 to 2007, rainfall became highly erratic for much of the globe, particularly in tropical areas. Green areas indicate that the day-to-day variability increased so that those areas experienced more days at one extreme or another, either dry or a downpour with little weather variation in-between. (Image courtesy of David Medvigy)
The impact of these fluctuations on natural and manmade systems could be as substantial as the fallout predicted from rises in the Earth's average temperature, Medvigy said. Inconsistent sunshine could impair the effectiveness of solar-energy production and — with fluctuating rainfall also included — harm agriculture, he said. Wetter, hotter conditions also breed disease and parasites such as mosquitoes, particularly in tropical areas, he said.
On a larger scale, wild shifts in day-to-day conditions would diminish the ability of trees and plants to remove carbon from the atmosphere, Medvigy said. In 2010, he and Harvard University researchers reported in the journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that erratic rain and sunlight impair photosynthesis. That study concluded that this effect upsets the structure of ecosystems, as certain plants and trees — particularly broad-leafed trees more than conifers — adapt better than others.
In the context of the current study, Medvigy said, the impact of variability on photosynthesis could mean that more carbon will remain in the atmosphere than climate models currently anticipate, considering that the models factor in normal plant-based carbon absorption. Moreover, if the meteorological tumult he and Beaulieu observed is caused by greenhouse gases, these fluctuations could become self-perpetuating by increasingly trapping the gases that agitated weather patterns in the first place.
"We have not yet looked for direct ties between weather variability and increased carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere, but I would not be surprised if they are connected in some way," Medvigy said.
"Increases in variability diminish the efficiency with which plants and trees remove carbon dioxide from the air," he said. "All of a sudden, the land and the atmosphere are no longer in balance, and plants cannot absorb levels of carbon dioxide proportional to the concentrations in the environment. That will affect everybody."
The study was published online Oct. 14 by the Journal of Climate, and was funded by grants from the Princeton Carbon Mitigation Initiative and the Fonds Québécois de la Recherche sur la Nature et les Technologies. |
Statistics don't lie--but liars try to misrepresent data. Perhaps mrgybe would like to share his bona fides? Graduated from the University of Arrogance? |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| nw30 wrote: | Maybe it's time to revisit the list of all things that global warming causes.
Every one of these things has a link to the original story, but to get to the links, you have to click on the source at the bottom.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A (Not Quite) Complete List Of Things Supposedly
Caused By Global Warmingl |
They forgot Al Sharpton's $4.5M delinquent tax debt, which he blames on racism against Obama as he continues to spend like, well, Obama. |
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keycocker
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Glad to help Gybe.
Keycocker said " ...the model predicts extremes of cold and hot weather"
Gybe "citation please"
I provided several and have hundreds more.
One problem is that you didn't read the citations you asked me to research for you. In there you will see the that the model predicts this, repeated in both complex and simple terms.
You got a one sentence statement about snow by those esteemed Englishmen confused with the 1000+ page model.
They would surely be surprised by your error, what with the differing page counts and all.
I included a link to explanations of weather, and Mac kindly added another citation for you to comment on without reading it either. |
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