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Evolution
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30, I like our thoughts, a lot. Yet I have my concerns you back the right but support the left on this religious crap. I tell you, a few percentage points on the fiscal stuff which the right is good for, and right for, doesn't come close to the infractions to my freedoms or lack of religion I support. I need to sin more, since I am good for it.
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windoggi



Joined: 22 Feb 2002
Posts: 2743

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I was saying
_________________
/w\
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to point fingers at the "people" who represent Christianity then you will never fall short of finding poor examples. You could even go so far as to read the bible and note that it's a book full of such people. The only pure and accurate representation of Christianity was Christ himself, and the same book gives an account of His life. You can choose to focus on that wonderful life or those who fall short of His glory, it's up to you.

You cite an example of your brother seeing your scientific article as an attack on his religion, but I have to wonder how willing you, or others on here, would be to study scripture. The same goes for this thread's topic of "Evolution". Based on the comments made here, and in the past, I was rightfully reluctant to respond. I figured if people were genuinely interested in knowledge that would inform them outside of their bias and they would seek that out themselves. There's a ton of great online content with regards to this subject, and some of that content actually correlates the two beliefs.

It is interesting just how many labels of judgement have so far been made about those of faith here in this thread alone. I would have to ask, are these judgements made based upon insightful knowledge, or personal biases? If I ventured a guess, I would say the majority of the comments made represent statements of prejudices. I would agree that some, but not all, have selected the messages of Christianity to fit their biases, but the fact is that scripture is a message of definitive moral values and absolutes.

If the movement turns inward, then why is there such a scriptural call to go out and help our sick world? Is it that the movement turns inward in "all" cases, or is it more of a "birds of a feather" thing? If that is the case of turning inward then I, and perhaps we, can all be found guilty of the same movement. In my case I do not drink or do drugs. I live a relatively active lifestyle and I'm health conscious. I never went to university, so according to some I lack intellect, though I disagree. As a result I associate with people who are much like me, none of my friends are drunk partiers, most windsurf or mountain bike and are in decent to great shape, and to defy the stereotype, the majority of my friends are doctors, accountants, engineers, teachers and successful business people. Does that mean I am, or your brother putting his children into a non-secular school, insular? I see it as being selective in who I associate with and their affect on me, or his children. There is plenty of smut out there for now and the rest of life. I don't need to bath in it daily to say I understand it, nor does subjecting your children to it make them any better for it. Would you be willing to put your children in a Christian school to make sure they were exposed to Christian ideas including creation?

See it as you may, but might I suggest we all need to examine our prejudices and biases that are rooted in ignorance. Something to think about when attaching those blanket statements to those of faith and their supposed "hate speech" bible. What is apparent is that it seems easier to throw one's hands in the air and state, "you're stupid!" about anyone who disagrees with your opinions or beliefs.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR,
What is a "hate speech" Bible? I have never heard those three words together until your post.

On creation.

We grew up playing in gullies and steams full of fossils. They were placed there by God to inform us, in my view.
We learned in church that Genesis was a short poem written for an audience who did not have the benefits of science thousands of years ago, on a subject that requires millions of pages to cover.
God created science too.
God gave us intelligence and the Earth itself as a huge trove of knowledge of the exact way He created it.

This oldfashioned view of things accepts both the Bible and the world at our feet with no conflict. All the rest of the debate seems man made to me, in part because it clearly puts people at each other's throats.
The God I believe in has never created discord and conflict. When I see those things, they are the handiwork of men.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC,
The "hate speech" is the catch phrase used by many to attack the bible and it's teachings.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess I have been out of touch overseas.
This is an expression used in that way to describe the Scriptures?
That is nuts.
There are a lot things a wacko like the link above can extract from the Bible but hate speech doesn't compute.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RR--except for your claim about hate speech, an excellent posting. I would say that hate speech can be defined as religious zealots--and they can be the Middle East Taliban, or the American Taliban--use religious terms to make a perceived enemy less than human.

I won't argue the bible with you--I was raised Catholic, and attended religion classes for 12 years. Read more than enough. You can find whatever you want in the bible--uplifting and inspiration moral guidance, and evidence of hateful prejudice. In that respect it is not fundamentally different than many religious paragons. Nor will I debate faith with you--I understand that it is a mystery, and not something that is based on rational thought.

But there are two differences. First, the bible is, by careful scholarship, a mixture of oral tradition that dates from the age of Jesus, whoever he might have been, and relics of pagan religions and folk tales. Many authors, and handed down from oral tradition. I won't belittle oral traditions--in many cultures it was spot on accurate for many generations. But most of us have played telephone and know how things can get lost in retelling. The first problem I have with fundamentalist religions is that they accept it all without reservation--and then take their messages selectively. So if it is not in the bible it can't be true, and if it is in the bible it must be true. Both objectively false.

But the religious revival in America, and to a substantial extent in the Muslim world, must be understood in a cultural sense. In both cases, the world is very complex, impossible to understand, and we organize it based on symbols. The revivals are evidence of human nature responding to the alienation of modernity. Lots of good studies to show this. What I cannot accept is your justification of hateful teaching by some religions as the inevitable byproduct of the fact that we are all sinners. While that is true, organizing your religion, as some in the eastern and western worlds have both done, around some concept of infidel, is fundamentally contradictory to the moral messages. It matters little to me whether those religions define the infidel as gay, in the case of many evangelical sects in America, or as American, as can be the case in the Middle East. It ain't religion, and it cannot be justified by saying we are all sinners.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of us atheists do not speak from ignorance RR, and have studied the Bible extensively, as well as having been tutored by devout Christians. BUT, the central plank of Christianity is the acceptance that Christ (immaculate conception) was the son of God. Many today, myself included can't and won't accept this. ('My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' the MAN cried out just before death.)

The Old Testament is NOT a scientific treatise on creation. Its fables are simply silly and impossible, and people who can blindly believe in such nonsense as Noahs Ark' or that the world was created just a few thousand years ago, have reality issues!

As a Christian you must be aware that the New Testament transcends the Old Testament. For one of the single most profound pieces of writing I refer you to St. Pauls Corinthians 13. It ends, (King James Bible translation)

'And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three, but the greatest of these is charity.'

Substitute love for charity (some Bible versions) and there you have it. No need for belief in illogical gibberish about creation. That is the core of the teachings of Jesus!
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reinerehlers, I have to say that you held back instead of react to this thread, and as a result, it shows a degree of restraint and thought on your part. However, one has to remember that religion is a lot more than Christianity, and that in itself has been a source for innumerable problems throughout human history. Unfortunately, the story is full of sadness and strife.

I have to agree with keycocker that much of what is Christianity, has been made by man. We see that Christian judgment abounds today just like it has done repeatedly in the past, and the only difference is that it isn't necessarily as brutal and violent in its execution.

One only needs to look at what Christianity is against and what they deny even today. That's not to say that there isn't good that flows from religious study and belief. But from a person like myself that is not religious at all, I tend to see more of the ugly side what Christians are against, and how willing they are to deny freedom to others. They wear a face that isn't always friendly and kind.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What I cannot accept is your justification of hateful teaching by some religions as the inevitable byproduct of the fact that we are all sinners"

My justification? Please elaborate. This statement sounds all too familiar which I refuse to even entertain again.
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