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The truly AWESOME scale of the UNIVERSE
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2319

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should know better, but..

People, including scientists (a very broad church if ever there was one) are free to believe what they wish.

The concept of a god is that of omnipotence, able to do ANYTHING.

The workings of the universe are governed SOLELY by the unbreakable laws of physics, and NOTHING has ever been demonstrated, or proven, to violate those inflexible laws. (E=MC2 and all that.)

Thus there is a clear contradiction. A rationalist may argue that if the universe, as claimed, is the hand of god, it was clearly an own goal in introducing unbreakable laws of physics which then put that god out of contention for any further interference!

That's simply one rational stock objection to a god.

P.S. Try reading a couple of H.G. Well's short stories on miracles. Hilarious, and oh so perceptive of human folly.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 3368

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT

Under your definition, structural engineers, such as myself, could be considered gods. I am often asked to modify gravity.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2319

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yers sir, but not by defying the laws of physics I hope!

I will, of course, accept a degree of intelligent design. (Wink)
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 3368

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F (really) = .75 m x a (everyone knows there is factor of safety we all apply) Wink
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19215

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
I am often asked to modify gravity.

Or escape it altogether on our way to the stars.
Or at least the nearest moon or planets.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2251
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Careful you must be, my friend, since immutable Newtonian Physics
was just a subset of a larger universe of Relativistic Physics which is
undoubtedly a subset of some greater Physical reality of strings and
multi-dimensional strings (or memBranes), and so it goes.

The Brane in which matter congeals is ridiculously unlikely.
Given the current age of our universe, the Brane upon which it exists
less likely still. A Brane wherein corporeal consciousness
developed randomly, billions and billions (RIP Carl) of times
less likely.

The question you should be asking is "why does the universe bother to exist at all? ".

It may be that without some global catastrophe, to create increased rates
of mutation, and considering our current brain pan size, we may never
be capable of comprehension, of what the real physics of the "universe"
may be.

I must say that I am most pleased and grateful that our universe is a
cause and effect clockwork, less personal stress that way ;*)
but I see the existence of a universe with an uneven distribution of energy as a miracle, that's just the mathematics of it.

-Craig


p.s. I love Wells (doesn't everybody).

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I should know better, but..

People, including scientists (a very broad church if ever there was one) are free to believe what they wish.

The concept of a god is that of omnipotence, able to do ANYTHING.

The workings of the universe are governed SOLELY by the unbreakable laws of physics, and NOTHING has ever been demonstrated, or proven, to violate those inflexible laws. (E=MC2 and all that.)

Thus there is a clear contradiction. A rationalist may argue that if the universe, as claimed, is the hand of god, it was clearly an own goal in introducing unbreakable laws of physics which then put that god out of contention for any further interference!

That's simply one rational stock objection to a god.

P.S. Try reading a couple of H.G. Well's short stories on miracles. Hilarious, and oh so perceptive of human folly.
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1263

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brain hurts.

What would nothing look like?
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2319

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I know I was being over simplistic, and should have kept my trap shut.

I agree that in our current state of evolution (reached practical limit of brain size given our bodily functions) we may never be able to comprehend reality, especially since we appear to be trapped within 'our' universe, one of many perhaps.

Why does it bother to exist? On reflection I don't think I would really like to know. I entirely agree that our cause and effect clockwork subsection universe fills me with gratitude also.

As for time; well as one of our Astronomer Royals pointed out, time is simply a method of preventing everything from happening all at once! (I don't think I should like that very much!)
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2251
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Frederick,

My brain hurts too, but I've been a closet cosmologist since my 1st
exposure to "vitamin A" back in the early 70s.

Since you asked,

The question of "nothing" may indeed be moot, but the most likely
universes in a multiverse should consist of a completely even distribution
of "stuff" , and the term "looks" probably only applies to a universe
in which the stuff has clumped together enough to form different
energies. Energies randomly clumping together to form matter,
well, that's just plain crazy.

If you're really interested, let me suggest Brian Greene's Elegant Universe.
He's a little less pedantic than Steven Hawking (who's Universe in a
Nutshell) is also a good read. If those don't take you on a little trip,
I understand, Infinite Minds, by John Leslie will.

-Craig

frederick23 wrote:
My brain hurts.

What would nothing look like?
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2251
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so sir, I always enjoy your perspective.

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Yes, I know I was being over simplistic, and should have kept my trap shut.


GURGLETROUSERS wrote:

especially since we appear to be trapped within 'our' universe, one of many perhaps.


And since I'm waxing physically philosophical. Gravity may in fact be a
multidimensional force which we can observe in our limited sense of
4 dimensions. That may be why it falls off as a square function
rather than linearly as our limited intelligence would expect. If that
is true, we may one day be able to send encoded gravity waves
(a sign of some cognizance if not intelligence ;*) ) off of our
Brane (M theory is also just a theory by the way, but one I can almost
understand), where the coding might be discovered by our other universal
brethren looking to pierce dimensional barriers for their own edification.

Just a thought,

-Craig
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