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The Short Board Tack
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just one of maybe 15-20 pointing tips is slogging hooked in. Learned that before I ever heard of jibes. And something I learned on Day 1, in August 1980, is that if your board is pointed at 11:00 or 12:00, you're drifting downwind fin-first and working yer butt off por nada.
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tstizzle



Joined: 05 Jul 2000
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
I’m not so sure you can hold a higher upwind angle when backwind sailing instead of normal schlogging. But if you can, it would be because you can get the nose of the board pointed higher into the wind as opposed to normal schlogging. Using the clock again where the wind is coming from 12:00 & you are schlogging, the true wind and apparent wind will be basically 12:00 so if you are on a starboard tack heading around 10:00, the clue of your sail will be pointed between 5 & 6. If you try to point the nose of your board to 11:00 your clue will still need to be @ 5&6 leaving you little place to stand on the board. When back wind sailing the clue can stay between 5&6 and you will have plenty of room on the board. As a matter of fact, the closer the nose of your board gets to 12:00 on a starboard tack the more room you have on the leeward side of the board.

Coachg


maybe i'm dense, but i'm still puzzled though. coachg, you're saying you don't think backwinding will allow a steeper upwind angle than schlogging? that the only true benefit (with regard to upwind movement, anyway, not necessarily comfort or ease) is not losing ground in a tack or jibe? i could have sworn we watched bryan backwinding for some time and all uniformly agreed the spot he reached was absolutely unreachable via schlogging.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much of that was due to backwinding vs Byan's sheer skill?
Don't forget that a guy whose initials are Robby Naish reportedly (WSMag?) once said he could not slog a shortboard upwind.
We must consider attainability here, lest we set ourselves up to duplicate others' years of effort towards a planing tack. And we must always consider the impact in a flood tide of even one fall.
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tstizzle



Joined: 05 Jul 2000
Posts: 242

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
How much of that was due to backwinding vs Byan's sheer skill?


fair enough. i did say he was a wicked sailer. and i stand by it.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

We must consider attainability here, lest we set ourselves up to duplicate others' years of effort towards a planing tack. And we must always consider the impact in a flood tide of even one fall.


Spoken by somebody who can't tack so therefore ASSUMES that the odds of falling on a tack are greater than the odds of falling on a jibe. Well you know what an assumption is.....

People can fall tacking or jibing. But don't mistake that to mean that the odds are greater when tacking. It's a skill like any other skill. Some can do it better than others but if you PRACTICE it, your skill with it will improve....

Plus you just don't get this. Windsurfing is MORE than just going back and forth, jumping and jibing. There is a LOT more to it. Maybe not for you but I have hope for the rest of us. Some how you equate taking the time to learn something new in windsurfing to be a waste of "windsurfing time". And you wonder why people leave windsurfing and go to kiting? It's because they want something NEW and challenging! Learning new windsurfing skills keeps windsurfing fresh. I have no idea why you constantly discourage this.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tstizzle,

I feel I can sail much higher when backwind sailing but that is just a feeling. I have never tested the theory which is why I said I'm not sure if you can sail higher when backwind sailing.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were faced with that question, I'd compare the techniques on a manageable day with slack or at least consistent tide and steadier winds. I'd employ shoreline observers plus landmarks, try both techniques head to head, and hope for a definitive answer. If it was too close to call, I'd do more rigorous testing. If that's a wash, I'd stick whatever's easier or more fun.

Maybe the ease of popping onto a plane when a gust hits is a tiebreaker, maybe even an overriding factor in a marginal session. I ALWAYS keep that factor in mind when I can't quite plane but need to be somewhere else. Given ANY chance of a planable (with or w/o pumping) gust, I swim or buttsail with the rig in the waterstart position or am always ready to pop to my feet with a flick of the sail when running straight downwind sitting on the board. I don't backstroke with my feet towing the board until I'm quite sure the wind will not come back. Of course, if I don't need to be anywhere else and believe the wind will return, I just lie beside or sit on the board and wait for the other side of the lull. I try to allow for that when choosing my location relative to my launch, as there's no point using my energy when Mother Nature's is available. I've sailed Delta flood tides, but apparently not at the velocities you guys have seen there, as I've never strayed more than 2-3 miles downwind, and that was largely by choice.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:


I've sailed Delta flood tides, but apparently not at the velocities you guys have seen there, as I've never strayed more than 2-3 miles downwind, and that was largely by choice.


2 or 3 MILES downwind on a flood tide by choice? Are you talking about the delta or in general? If you are referring to the delta, then that is WAY farther than most of us want to. In fact, on a flood the only direction I was interested in going was upwind. Especially when I can get or stay upwind using tacking technique (if the wind is planable) or slogging and tacking if the wind isn't (to get back to the beach). I like to think I left my days of the "walk of shame" (which I did quite frequently in my early days sailing in the Delta) far behind me now.....

Funny, shortboard uphauling, tacking, and pivot jibes are skills that are frequently taught at ABK courses when you have a low wind day. All three skills have really helped me and I still use them to this day....
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From west of the county park to east of Powerlines, sailing alone (wife was at Lawrence Livermore on business). I like exploring, and often do that and more on the Columbia. My impaired balance forced me to all but abandon the skills you mention in 1996. Just slogging a 90L sinker in a broad reach is a huge, often wet, challenge.
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johnl



Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
From west of the county park to east of Powerlines, sailing alone (wife was at Lawrence Livermore on business). I like exploring, and often do that and more on the Columbia. My impaired balance forced me to all but abandon the skills you mention in 1996. Just slogging a 90L sinker in a broad reach is a huge, often wet, challenge.


Okay that pretty much sucks. Impaired balance (mine got worse when I shattered my left heel, but I deal with it) is something none of us looks forward to when we get older. If slogging a 90l board is a challenge under normal conditions, then your odds of tacking that board are probably pretty small. Although a pivot jibe should be something you can do (it's basically a nonplanning quick jibe).

But with no offense meant, your current balance level isn't the norm for most windsurfers. So even though the thought of a tack is beyond your scope, it really isn't for most. And it is far more effective in getting upwind when needed. ESPECIALLY if you are in just barely planable winds in a flood tide. And as I have mentioned before, I am capable of doing both fairly well, and I can say with experience under those conditions, the tack clearly outperforms the jibe in getting or staying upwind. Which is pretty much where this entire conversation started.....
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