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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17747 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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NW--one of those who frequently denies that government can do anything--says it is difficult to eradicate polio. Duh. mrgybe, who wants his politicians to stay bought, says India's government is inefficient.
Nobody, left or right, objects to measures to make government more efficient. But when asked how to improve government, the right just wants to slash regulations that protect health.
Clueless--but funny! Man up children of the world. Get your immune systems in order, because Tea baggers cut basic health research as well as taxes. |
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008 Posts: 6485 Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180
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Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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It is understandable that someone who has spent his entire life in Berkeley would know little of third world health initiatives. Perhaps a moment's education will help him. Most of the major initiatives.........malaria, TB, AIDS, water sanitation, polio etc....... are funded and run by NGOs, private foundations, corporations and charities. Many NGOs receive some funding from their own government (e.g. USAID), and consortia of first world governments also sometimes provide funding, but the rest is private money. The local governments provide a front for their work, but rely on these organizations for their expertise, staffing and money. High level guidance is sometimes provided by the WHO. Corrupt local governments find a myriad of ways to enrich themselves off these initiatives........the granting of work permits, the clearance of materials through customs, the steering of contracts to "friendly" local contractors and so on.........all provide opportunities for direct government "involvement". And senior government officials are always available to take the credit for the work of others.
So the combative question was posed.........did private enterprise eradicate polio? The answer is, to a large extent, yes...........same for AIDS, malaria and so on. And yes, the oil companies are among the largest supporters of these programs. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17747 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Someone who feels free to make up the life details of those he disagrees with is obviously an expert in all things. He seems to have discovered that taking on tasks such as eradicating polio takes cooperation among different organizations. But without duress from government, and funding, polio would not have been eradicated in the United States--or in India. Not exactly the tale told by the far right. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Polio eradicated in India |
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At least we have moved away from this.
mac wrote: | The latest accomplishment of government that could not have been done by private industry at all, much less more efficiently, is the eradication of polio in India. |
When gratuitously trying to start an argument, it's usually a good idea to have command of the facts. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17747 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I’m certainly not surprised by the screeching or accusations of mrgybe; the only surprise is the degree to which he will stretch the truth. I said that polio efforts require, and have, the support of governments—not that government has done it alone. The convenient fact that mrgybe ignores is that governments do much of their work through grants. But the Federal government, on policy and funding, has been a cornerstone of efforts to eliminate polio, both in this country and in others. Some facts that mrgybe does not seem to grasp can be found here: http://kff.org/global-health-policy/fact-sheet/the-u-s-government-and-global-polio-efforts/
I’ll clip in a key piece that makes my argument:
Quote: | The U.S. government (USG) has been engaged in efforts to address polio for decades, as a partner in and the largest donor to the GPEI and supporter of developing countries’ efforts. USG commitment to polio eradication efforts has been reaffirmed in recent years: in 2009, President Obama called greater attention to polio eradication efforts, including the need for greater cooperation with Islamic leaders and others in reaching those areas where the virus persists.7 Most recently, the USG signed onto the global goal to eradicate polio by 2018 and prepare for a post-polio world, as outlined in Polio Eradication and Endgame Strategic Plan, 2013-2018.8 |
I’m not arguing that this is Obama’s accomplishment—but the efforts have reduced polio outbreaks from 350,000 in 1988 to 403 in 2013, and from 125 countries to 3. It is interesting to note that the three countries where polio remains endemic—Afghanistan, Nigeria, and Pakistan, have many of the characteristics of weak governments (yes, that includes corruption) and failed states.
The Federal government’s efforts have been directed through the Center for Disease Control and USAID, and entail over $2 billion in funding—but saves an estimated $40 to $50 billion. To be sure, the Gates foundation is a key, and beneficial player; the have contributed $1.8 billion and raised nearly double that amount.
Basic research in developing polio vaccines was not funded primarily by the Federal government, here is a brief history excerpt that is on point:
Quote: | This understanding about the nature of polio grew through painstaking research over the first half of the twentieth century, much of it funded by the March of Dimes, a grassroots organization founded with the help of President Roosevelt. The organization decided to enlist the services of a respected researcher who was certain he could find a safe vaccination. http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/polio.php |
However, the implementation of vaccination required the cooperation of governments at all levels.
I would assume that someone who made his living extracting oil from public lands acquired by leasing them from governments throughout the world is well aware that his industry could not have achieved their mission without dealing directly with the governments who owned the resources. I have little doubt that his experience included many in government that would trade higher royalties for political favor. But it is axiomatic that big oil cannot do what it does without the cooperation of government. Effective governance usually involves public private partnerships--which in turn requires open minds. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001 Posts: 4161
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Mac says:
Quote: | Bad news for the far right, who keep repeating that government can't accomplish anything. Of course they argue this, ignoring their driving, on a government build road, in a car that is safe because of government regulations, to a park that is owned and managed by the government. The latest accomplishment of government that could not have been done by private industry at all, much less more efficiently, is the eradication of polio in India. Funded in part by the Federal government's Center for Disease Control, and carried out under the auspices of the Indian Government. |
Then Mac says:
Quote: | I’m certainly not surprised by the screeching or accusations of mrgybe; the only surprise is the degree to which he will stretch the truth. I said that polio efforts require, and have, the support of governments—not that government has done it alone. The convenient fact that mrgybe ignores is that governments do much of their work through grants. |
As Mr. Rogers would say: "Can you say back peddle?" |
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008 Posts: 6485 Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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You noticed that too huh? LOL!!
The thread started out as a hit piece against those that don't like big government, but then it kinda slipped away. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999 Posts: 17747 Location: Berkeley, California
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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You say backpeddle, I say reading comprehension. Without the active support of the Indian government and US government funding it doesn't happen.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to how the government actually spends money--through the private sector and NGO's. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 Posts: 5180
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Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Another 15 minute web search expert. |
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