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feuser
Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1508
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | swchandler said: | Quote: | | You have to admit, the right wing article had nothing to say about how much we spend on the military, which is clearly the lion's share of the pie. |
No I don't have to admit anything other than the article had nothing to do with military spending, so why is that an issue? In the most simplistic way, it just compared the number of people that contribute to the government with those that take from the government. |
No it doesn't. It compares apples and oranges in order to make a point. It's an opinion piece with some data tacked onto it.
Let's take numbers of "takers" versus number of "workers". On one side of the statistic, the author excludes employees of the public sector. Yes, their salaries are, in fact, being paid by the public - taxes largely, but that does not mean that a. they do not contribute value and b. neglects the fact that they, too, pay taxes. Th author, knowing full well which strings to pull with his conservative readership, makes sure to separate the truly deserving members of the military service from all those other public sector slackers.
On the other hand of the statistic, he throws in people who live in a household where one or more members receive a means-tested benefit. Tell me - how does the single parent with a job at walmart fit in - a job that pays many so poorly, that in spite of full time employment, their children or even they themselves rely on public assistance.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/04/walmart_employees_on_food_stamps_their_wages_aren_t_enough_to_get_by.html
Yes, the math is bad, even if the numbers are right - and that they might not even be.
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florian - ny22
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nw30
Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| It really is, all in the same pot, and where it comes from. |
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boggsman1
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9120
Location: at a computer
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | swchandler said: | Quote: | | You have to admit, the right wing article had nothing to say about how much we spend on the military, which is clearly the lion's share of the pie. |
No I don't have to admit anything other than the article had nothing to do with military spending, so why is that an issue? In the most simplistic way, it just compared the number of people that contribute to the government with those that take from the government. |
Elon Musk paid many millions of taxes last year, but as Mr Gybe pointed out , the profits of his company Tesla...which helped to fuel the stock price, and Mr. Musk's net worth, were generated with huge Fed subsidies....Is he a taker, or a maker?
Point is , a crafty hack like Terry Jeffrey can convince the lowest denominator of almost anything. |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14885
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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boggsman1
Too your point:
For instance the right wing Olin foundation, who has donated in todays money billions to right wing causes starting in the early 70s or 60s to take over media. They made their money selling to the government. are they a maker or taker. They made munitions and sold to the north and south.
I have read numbers of about 60-80 percent of all innovations had government funding of some sort. Are these takers or makers
are these takers or makers? Basically the founding of electronic communication over didtance. A great example is our founders first generation funded the start of the electronic communications in the USA. These tax hating founders kids gave the initial money to set up the first morse code long distance system in the world. note long distance at that time was from DC to Baltimore. thus showing the founders intent was taxation for a better america. Think about $30,000.00 in the early 1800s when our country was still a baby.
| Quote: | Samuel Morse
While a professor of arts and design at New York University in 1835, Samuel Morse proved that signals could be transmitted by wire. He used pulses of current to deflect an electromagnet, which moved a marker to produce written codes on a strip of paper - the invention of Morse Code. The following year, the device was modified to emboss the paper with dots and dashes. He gave a public demonstration in 1838, but it was not until five years later that Congress (reflecting public apathy) funded $30,000 to construct an experimental telegraph line from Washington to Baltimore, a distance of 40 miles. |
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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
Last edited by real-human on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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You both raise a point that is dear to my heart, because I worked my whole career in the aerospace/defense industry. The government funded it all, and it still does today, as the opening post on this thread suggests. The government has a huge interest in promoting the things that benefit society as a whole. But in doing that, society participates and contributes to the whole to a growing economy.
Today, given the need to grow and get stronger in an increasingly global world, the government needs to invest in innovative ideas while money is cheap right now. Why are the Republicans constantly trying to pull back on the reins? Deficit reduction might seem like the right path, but do venture capitalists make money attempting to reduce their investments and debt? Corporations are sitting on record levels of cash, but so little is happening. I'm betting that the government can find ways to get corporations to invest along with country to build something better, and we can do it without sacrificing meaningful regulations. |
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feuser
Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1508
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| nw30 wrote: | | It really is, all in the same pot, and where it comes from. |
NW - write that onto the blackboard 1000 times: "The economy isn't a zero sum game"
Then actual conservatives might talk to you again.
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florian - ny22
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pointster
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | bajadean said: | Quote: | | what is funny is how you and the writer of that piece are so math challenged |
Saying it is wrong is one thing, proving it is wrong is another. I will take your side, just show me where the math is incorrect. |
Well, as they say, “figures can lie, and liars can figure.”
First, let’s look at the premise that private sector workers support the rest of the economy. Actually, both the public and private sectors produce goods and services. A public scool teacher provides educational services just as does a private school teacher. Both pay taxes that support transfer payments . And the government provids tangibles such as airports, highways, ports, etc. that are vital to the functionig of the private sector of the economy
(Also, many private sector workers are themselves paid with tax dollars. Think of employees of denfense contractors, contruction companies that build highways, etc.)
So if you want to calculate the number of full-time workers supporting transfer payments, you should include both public and private sector workers, all 103,087,000 of them.
Second, the number of people who receive means-tested benefits include millions of people who are working full time, but make so little money they qualify for benefits. In these cases, the subsidies are actually going to cheapskate employers such as Walmart. Yet the people who moan about welfare don’t seem to be very vocal in support of a higher minimum wage, or making it easier to form unions to collectively bargain for living wages.
Third, the 49,901,000 Social Security recipients paid into the system, which has actually been running a surplus, and could continue to be in balance, if the earnings cap were raised or eliminated. They also paid into Medicare, and pay Part B premiums which are deducted from their Social Security checks.
So the whole maker-taker comparison is bogus. Private sector workers do not provide all the income and wealth of the economy, and there is a huge overlap between the people who work and the people who receive benefits. In reality are we all makers and takers. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17747
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Pointser--you know that, but those who post such nonsense... |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| pointster wrote: | | First, let’s look at the premise that private sector workers support the rest of the economy...... Private sector workers do not provide all the income and wealth of the economy...... |
However, the fundamental point is that the private sector can, and for centuries did, exist without a public sector. The public sector cannot exist without the private sector. Taxes paid by public sector workers are merely one way that taxes extracted from the private sector are recycled by public sector workers. Put another way, if all forms of taxation were eliminated tomorrow, the public sector would cease to exist in short order. The private sector would continue, albeit in an altered form. |
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uwindsurf
Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 968
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| mrgybe wrote: | | Put another way, if all forms of taxation were eliminated tomorrow, the public sector would cease to exist in short order. The private sector would continue, albeit in an altered form. |
With no military to protect them, the US private sector would exist in their altered form as Chinese factory workers. |
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