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On the use of adjustable outhaul
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:

Harness lines are short for the upwind and long for the downwind, so I have adjustable lines on all my sails from 6.0 up. Some formula racers have two sets of fixed harness lines, usually attached at the same point, but one long and one short so there is no adjusting as you round the marks..


Is anyone else having trouble with this statement? Are these the formula racers at the back of the pack doing this? The COE of my sails all change dramatically when I change my outhaul. Why would they be attached at the same point?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1477

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe said:
Quote:
That may work for tehno900, but you can do better, sailboarder. Look at the flaw in that approach. Let's say that you're marginally planing. Now let's say that there is a long-term increase in wind speed. But instead of moving your harness lines back to comfortably deal with the extra power, you reduce the sail power by tugging on the outhaul. And, welcome back to marginally planing.


There is something to what joe is saying, but when I flatten a sail, I am not in marginal conditions or in slowly increasing winds. While free sailing, I flatten when I am fully powered and a gust with a 5-10 mph increase is about to hit. I bag if I am about to come off plane or am heading deep downwind.

Formula racers typically sail overpowered, and at any given time would have great difficulty sailing on a beam reach. No one is adjusting harness line positions. On the other hand, when I am free sailing my formula board, I try to rig so that I am well powered on a beam reach and can head up in the gusts or bear off a little in the lulls. Flattening or bagging the sail as needed.

In Joe's scenario, if I am in marginal conditions on my formula board, let's say 5-15 mph on my 9.2 and the sail is full for power and the wind begins to build, I will flatten the sail a bit when the back hand get too much pull to rebalance the rig. Now the wind is 10-18 and I am balanced, but it picks up to 12-20, so I flatten some more to stay balanced and will be doing more up wind/down wind sailing in the increasing wind. Trust me, there is no marginal planing with a flat 9.2 in 15-20 winds. Now, if the wind drops back to the 5-15 I started in, then the sail gets bagged and I try to stay on plane in the lulls. There is no reason to mess with the harness line position.

With the big sails, you will get "back winded" or "slammed" on occasion in the big gusts. Flattening the sail does not work miracles, there are limits.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1477

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe said:
Quote:
Is anyone else having trouble with this statement? Are these the formula racers at the back of the pack doing this? The COE of my sails all change dramatically when I change my outhaul. Why would they be attached at the same point?

The reason is that upwind, short lines and a flat sail are more efficient for speed and pointing high. On a deep downwind run, the sail is bagged and you are much further from the rig with extended arms. Short lines would be a disaster. I have adjustable lines and will keep them around 24" on the upwind and 28" on the downwind. The COE doesn't change even though you go from a flat sail to a full sail because downwind, the apparent wind is much less then when you are sailing upwind. So, having two sets of lines in the same place (one long and one short), eliminates the need to mess with the adjustable lines when rounding a mark. Also, a bagged sail deep downwind is much more stable than a flat sail and easier to control.

So, even though you go from a flat to a full sail, the COE is stable because the apparent wind changes significantly between the upwind and downwind points of sail. NO NEED TO MOVE THE LINES.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14174

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if you've changed outhaul tension appreciably because the wind strength changed, and not because you're doing it between upwind and downwind, the COE shift is apparent. I want my lines balanced as closely as possible to keep my arms and tendons fresh, so I move my lines on the boom any time I adjust my outhaul. It takes only an extra 10-12 seconds since I'm in the water already. Also, I don't plan my upwind and downwind excursions ... I just do 'em spontaneously, for 10 seconds or 30 minutes.

And although short lines often FEEL like impending disaster when blasting way off the wind overpowered in heavy terrain even on a small sinker, I don't recall ever eating it in that scenario. I'm probably just being more careful to maintain control than when beam reaching or pinching.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2001

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short lines don't give you any more sense of impending doom than long lines when going down wind, short lines just impede how deep you can go in the same sense that not letting out your out haul does. You can't properly match sail trim to the shift in apparent wind as you can with longer lines. With both short & long lines the ride will be scary, long lines simply provide scary at a deeper angle.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14174

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straight, even past, downwind. Roller bar!
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't 'dis' folks for offering advice and sharing what works for them. But tuning your rig to match a fixed harness line position is just bassackwards. Not saying you can't do it. Just saying you can do better.

There are harness lines out there that are easier to adjust than an outhaul. Tune your rig for point of sail and power requirements. That's your engine. Move your harness lines and hands to make things comfortable.

I'm pretty sure that the Kona folks use the minimum downhaul and outhaul for winds from 0 - 15 kts, maybe more. Harness lines may move 5 - 8" through this range.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 14174

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the Kona folks use the minimum downhaul and outhaul for winds from 0 - 15 kts, maybe more. Harness lines may move 5 - 8" through this range.

Back when I slacked off on the downhaul in expectation of light winds, the sails always felt like sheets of plywood ... topheavy, leaden, unresponsive ... just bad. The past 20 years I've downhauled "normally" and adjusted power with outhaul tension. I may downhaul MORE than "normal" if I have too much power but it's too late in the day to re-rig, but never less than "normal". I nudge my harness line positions in cm ... and very few of them ... not 5"-8", more like a total range of 1"-2". But then my solid downhaul locks in the COE fairly well, so outhaul tweaks don't move the COE THAT much.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 1477

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe said:
Quote:
There are harness lines out there that are easier to adjust than an outhaul. Tune your rig for point of sail and power requirements. That's your engine. Move your harness lines and hands to make things comfortable.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't know of any formula racer that moves harness lines, it just isn't needed.

If I have my lines positioned on my 9.2 for 15 knots upwind and the wind picks up 5 knots, my back hand will have too much pull because the COE has moved back in the sail, (I am also somewhat overpowered), so I pull on the outhaul to flatten the sail, now I am back in balance and have more than enough power and speed. It is just that simple!
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You almost got it. Wind picks up. The COE moves back. You feel overpowered. The big reason you feel overpowered is that the COE moved back and you didn't move your harness lines to compensate. Set the formula racing world on fire, and be the first to move your harness lines as needed!

This forum has all level of sailors. Some are happy with their current skill level, and for those, working around fixed harness lines may work. I push my limits, and I'm trying to make myself a better racer and gps'er. Some day, I'd like to give the best racers in the world a run for their money. It'll never happen, but I can try. Gets scary sometimes. It's not going to happen with fixed harness lines. Especially, in marginal conditions where your at min outhaul. The lines have to come forward or you'll stall the sail to easily.
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