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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2597
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT,

Being a performance sports guy since I was a lad, I hold no
illusions about competing with the young, but to quote one of the
surgeons who has kept me functional " dope is the only hope"
(he's long since passed by the way). Surely you wouldn't
refuse surgery (say an ACL rebuild for example) to continue to enjoy
your way of life. I see little difference between that and a molecular
equivalent hormone therapy, other than the evil side effects of the
hormone therapy. There is a certain grace involved with aging, and I
agree that it takes some maturity to accept it, but I don’t see
hormone therapy as immoral. I don’t yet feel the need for it (maybe
I never will), but if say at 70, I believe it will improve the quality of my
life, and I understand the associated risks, then why not?

With respect,

-Craig

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
'are you content to slowly and incrementally decline in your athletic and manly abilities and mindset?'

YES, because anybody who denies the obvious (the human ageing proicess) and imagines that ageing need not prevent you from competing at world class level in athletics (70 year olds win the Tour de France, and run sub 4 minute miles) is simply delusional, or bonkers! They are on a par with vain women who use batteries of creams and lotions to pretend they can hold back the ravages of time.

What some seem to be wanting is chemical or genetic engineering of the human body for eternal (till death) youth. But it may surprise some to know that one of the blessings of the ageing process is the ability of the mind (it also ages) to accept those limitations, and actually LIKE it.

It's a form of contentment, exclusive to age and experience of life (thank goodness we've left that part behind), which clearly eludes some obsessives! (They must really be pissed off!)
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig. (With respect.)

The effects of natural human ageing and limitations is a difficult issue. I think cultural differences play a large part in how people see things.

I would seperate two issues.

1) Advanced medical treatment (ancients didn't have that option) of degenrative illness both physical and mental, and treatment for those with genetically inherited problems (heart issues etc) is right. I would gladly accept such in order to maintain what I see as a NATURAL level of fitness for my age.

2) Medically drug induced ENHANCEMENT of natural body functions, whether by boosting naturally declining body chemicals, or by new and as yet experimental powerful drugs, which I completely reject, because, to me, that would be contrary to natural human life.

The ancients valued wisdom in the old, much of which came from degrees of suffering as being good for the soul. My own experience in my 40's (a very bad time) has proven that concept to me.

Our advanced western society, and the rapid growth of medical science, is in danger of divorcing people from reality, and the notion of actions have consequences, thus leading them to have expectations way beyond those which a mature and thinking mind should accept as the path to ultimate human satisfaction and contentment of life.

I don't want to live in a world full of Frankenstein monsters!
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 9293

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a knee replacement and some hormone therapy hardly qualifies as Frankenstein GT! However, I'm with you on the arrested development of adults today. This should be a time for reflection and introspection. A time to impart our wisdom to the young.

What is shocking to me is they're not rioting in the streets about how our (baby boom) generation has screwed up their future.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2597
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT,

It appears to me you've drawn a hard line as to what is natural and
what is not. Allow me to provide an example, which hits close to home
(for me). My family (much like yours as I recall) lives to be very old.
The probabilities are (barring accidents including those wherein I put myself in jeopardy)
that I will live into my mid-90s. I have friends whose
progenitors regularly kick off in their 50s due to vascular disease. Their
"natural" tendency is to die (relatively) young. Should they then do
their duty and die early, or extend their life with pharmacology (statins and such).

One might extrapolate, that some males also tend toward continued
high levels of testosterone, even into old age (Silvio Berlusconi comes to mind ;*) ),
and some males tend toward low levels of testosterone early
in life. Should those unfortunate low T males then dismiss the vitality
they could enjoy, to be more "natural"?

I understand your point (my suspicion is that our species as it exists today
will be engineered out of existence eventually), but "natural" is a
more relative term for me.

Again respectfully,

-Craig


GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Craig. (With respect.)

The effects of natural human ageing and limitations is a difficult issue. I think cultural differences play a large part in how people see things.

I would seperate two issues.

1) Advanced medical treatment (ancients didn't have that option) of degenrative illness both physical and mental, and treatment for those with genetically inherited problems (heart issues etc) is right. I would gladly accept such in order to maintain what I see as a NATURAL level of fitness for my age.

2) Medically drug induced ENHANCEMENT of natural body functions, whether by boosting naturally declining body chemicals, or by new and as yet experimental powerful drugs, which I completely reject, because, to me, that would be contrary to natural human life.

The ancients valued wisdom in the old, much of which came from degrees of suffering as being good for the soul. My own experience in my 40's (a very bad time) has proven that concept to me.

Our advanced western society, and the rapid growth of medical science, is in danger of divorcing people from reality, and the notion of actions have consequences, thus leading them to have expectations way beyond those which a mature and thinking mind should accept as the path to ultimate human satisfaction and contentment of life.

I don't want to live in a world full of Frankenstein monsters!


Last edited by cgoudie1 on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nacheral, Smacheral. I just want to know and evaluate the downsides that accompany the upsides, whether it's a simple energy drink or chemotherapy. Whether it's natural means absolutely nothing to me. Hell, strychnine and malaria are natural.
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pueno



Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 2807

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fick-shun wrote:
Hell, strychnine and malaria are natural.

Mikey, it pains me to say this -- truly pains me -- but in that, you're right.

So is cyanide.
.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've racked my brain to give a sensible reply, but can't. Most of my life has been driven by emotional certainty Craig, not logic.

I think in this case, religion or philosophy may be a better guide to what is acceptable in medical 'tampering' with human genetics, rather than the 'opening of Pandora's Box at any price' by advances in medical science.
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MalibuGuru



Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 9293

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I've racked my brain to give a sensible reply, but can't. Most of my life has been driven by emotional certainty Craig, not logic.

I think in this case, religion or philosophy may be a better guide to what is acceptable in medical 'tampering' with human genetics, rather than the 'opening of Pandora's Box at any price' by advances in medical science.


GT, it will be a sad day for me when you announce you're done sailing. I can only imagine the brutality of the N Atlantic. You're older than I am, but I've had 3 surgeries and a couple of casts to keep me on the water. I just got back from Punta San Carlos only 7 weeks after my fractured ankle. Ibuprofen is my 2nd religion.... Laughing Surf was logo to mast high BTW.

I will do what it takes to stay on the water and above sea level for as long as I can. From personal experience, people survive longer when they are active. LET'S ALL STAY ACTIVE!!
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely agree Steven. I forgot to make clear I'm pro reconstructive surgery to repair damage and breakage, even though that damage may be a result of over enthusiastic 'abuse' of an ageing bodily structure. I hope you have recovered fully, but age will eventually limit how radical, especially in surf, you will remain.

An ex colleague of my age, an enthusiastic fell walker, slipped on ice (common enough for him in the past) and this time,broke his hip. The operation was mostly successful, but mentally he has taken a big knock. He is now aware that his rapidly ageing body will no longer tolerate the over enthusiastic strain which he had been placing on it. He can no longer allow his enthusiasm to override the obvious. (Bones, joints, ligaments, tendons, whatever, are not what they once were, and won't take abuse.)

I liken it to racing old well run in cars. Supercharging is the last thing they need. Over rev and over stress, and the con rods will say blow this for a lark, and smash through the crankcase!
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2597
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT,

Your car analogy strikes close to the bone as we are all shadows of our
former selves. Cheers to those mechanics in masks who keep us on
the water (however feeble we may be). My own tribe is hip deep (yuk yuk) in
mechanical knees, hips, and other sundry rebuilds. We still mount
a (tempered) charge in high winds, and big swells, but we are mindful
of the physical limits of an aging body.

-Craig


GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I absolutely agree Steven. I forgot to make clear I'm pro reconstructive surgery to repair damage and breakage, even though that damage may be a result of over enthusiastic 'abuse' of an ageing bodily structure. I hope you have recovered fully, but age will eventually limit how radical, especially in surf, you will remain.

An ex colleague of my age, an enthusiastic fell walker, slipped on ice (common enough for him in the past) and this time,broke his hip. The operation was mostly successful, but mentally he has taken a big knock. He is now aware that his rapidly ageing body will no longer tolerate the over enthusiastic strain which he had been placing on it. He can no longer allow his enthusiasm to override the obvious. (Bones, joints, ligaments, tendons, whatever, are not what they once were, and won't take abuse.)

I liken it to racing old well run in cars. Supercharging is the last thing they need. Over rev and over stress, and the con rods will say blow this for a lark, and smash through the crankcase!
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