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Put children in jail or send them to be killed.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12635
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--don't make it up. This:

Quote:
The left apparently isn't concerned with the flow of illegals across the border, particularly the children.


is completely fabricated. Like it or not, the current immigration legislation is the legacy of Ronald Reagan, and his ties to California agriculture, which assured a certain level of open borders to degrade the Farm Worker's Union and keep wages low. Along with most on the "left" I support immigration reform that creates a path, however difficult, to citizenship for people who have been here a long time. I support enforcement against big businesses who hire immigrants to break unions and depress wages. Look in the hotel, meat-packing, food packaging industries for a good place to start.

Finally, there is legislation that allows children to flee political persecution. It was sponsored by a Republican, passed by an overwhelming margin, and is the basis of the Obama administration's current policies. Some are mad because he has accelerated deportation of those who cannot show that they face a real threat.

As always, you are entitled to your own opinion--but not your own set of facts.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19167

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
If you believe that the influx of children is because of their need to flee persecution ...

The Border Patrol's intelligence arm interviewed hundreds of these illegal aliens. Something like 223 out of 226 said they crossed the border simply because they had been told they would get beaucoup free Obenefits. The money trail of this orchestrated distortion of Opolicy leads straight to the cartels and the governments of those countries, most notably Mexico. Source: The Border Patrol and related alphabet soup intel agencies.

The National Border Patrol Council says
"Interviews with the detainees show that overwhelmingly, now, they are coming because they heard from a family member or a friend that the United States is no longer enforcing its immigration laws and that the United States is handing out what they term permisos, or permits, and allowing people to stay here in the U.S.," ...
Border Patrol agents have seen evidence indicating the border crossings are being orchestrated by criminal gangs that engage in both drug smuggling and human trafficking ...

"We believe this is a coordinated activity by the cartels to tie up the Border Patrol so that they can push their drugs through."
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uwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 968
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
techno900 wrote:
If you believe that the influx of children is because of their need to flee persecution ...

The Border Patrol's intelligence arm interviewed hundreds of these illegal aliens. Something like 223 out of 226 said they crossed the border simply because they had been told they would get beaucoup free Obenefits. The money trail of this orchestrated distortion of Opolicy leads straight to the cartels and the governments of those countries, most notably Mexico. Source: The Border Patrol and related alphabet soup intel agencies.

The National Border Patrol Council says
"Interviews with the detainees show that overwhelmingly, now, they are coming because they heard from a family member or a friend that the United States is no longer enforcing its immigration laws and that the United States is handing out what they term permisos, or permits, and allowing people to stay here in the U.S.," ...
Border Patrol agents have seen evidence indicating the border crossings are being orchestrated by criminal gangs that engage in both drug smuggling and human trafficking ...

"We believe this is a coordinated activity by the cartels to tie up the Border Patrol so that they can push their drugs through."


Here is the rest of the article the quote is from:

Border Patrol agents have seen evidence indicating the border crossings are being orchestrated by criminal gangs that engage in both drug smuggling and human trafficking, Moran said.

"We believe this is a coordinated activity by the cartels to tie up the Border Patrol so that they can push their drugs through," he explained.

Tristan Reed, Mexico security analyst for Stratfor, a global intelligence firm based in Austin, Texas, said drug cartels control crossings from the Mexican side of the border and could be taking advantage of the Central American immigrants.

"It is well within their ability to pick and choose who crosses and where they cross," Reed said, "and it certainly is a good opportunity for them to push more profitable drugs across the border while law enforcement is distracted."

Reed said crime and insecurity in Central American countries have created conditions not unlike those found in war-ravaged nations.

The drug wars, and the violence that accompanies the pursuit of ill-gotten gains, largely are to blame for people fleeing, he said.

There’s "money to be had for criminals, and especially when you start bringing in organized and very capable Mexican crime groups into Central America, it sort of helps organize and fuel these drug wars even more," Reed said.

Poverty and lack of economic opportunity in some Central American countries help explain why parents there would risk sending their children alone on the long journey across Mexico with the goal of crossing into the United States.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3435

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac posted:
Quote:
Techno--don't make it up. This:

Quote:
The left apparently isn't concerned with the flow of illegals across the border, particularly the children.

is completely fabricated.


I don't fabricate opinions.

I rarely hear anything from the left that suggests they want to stop the inflow of illegals, especially children. In general the left seems accepting when the issue of the porous border is brought up by the right. I also don't see any Obama government crack down on employers that hire illegals. Why aren't you pissed about that problem?

You have claimed that a good part of the economy in California is dependent on the illegals and their labor (as I recall). So I guess you would want all the companies hiring illegals to get fined, lose business licenses and the illegals sent home. Is that what you want? I don't think so, but I would guess that you would prefer to make them all legal, pay them minimum wage and then everyone is happy. I wonder how much the produce in the fields will cost if that happens? How about housing. If all the construction workers are paid minimum wage, only the one percenters will be able to afford a home in Calif. What happens if the minimum wage goes to $10? I see chaos ahead.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19167

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I rarely hear anything from the left that suggests they want to stop the inflow of illegals

Just the opposite, in fact. Many liberals state explicitly they they support a wide open ... i.e., non-existent ... southern border. The first two who come to mind are on the Fox News payroll: Geraldo Rivera and Kirsten Powers.
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keycocker



Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 3598

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every discussion I have had with libs, they are concerned about Immigration.
Perhaps you haven't spoken to enough of them in person.

No US gov. has ever come down on employers.
Every country I am familar with has a policy of arresting employers, so it is hard for a gringo to get a job in Mexico,for example.

I don't think a higher min wage will raise the cost of a home very much.
It costs as little as $150K to build a simple home in Maui that sells for $600K.
The labor would be about half the cost.
Min wage labor about a third of that, perhaps $20 K on the last job we did for $150K.if it went up $2hr that would be just a few thousand in a $600K home.

Picking a different color of roofing can cost that much at times.

The average price of a home here is $600 because people will pay that much for a small family house here.
If people were only willing to pay $400K that would be price of the same home.
The buyer doesn't care if the builder spent $5000 more or less on labor, or even know.
Disclaimer .... The min wage at my company is US$15.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 12635
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno--you are absolutely making it up. I said that I favor creating a pathway to citizenship--the pathway in the bill that the Republicans were too chicken to bring to the floor--was pretty difficult. I favor that for a number of different reasons that involve equity.

1. Many immigrants have been here for many years--encouraged by the seasonal allowances created by Reagan. It is impractical to deport some 12 million, much less the impact on the economy.

2. Obama and Congress have dramatically increased the border patrol funding over Bush. Neither has done much about employers. It is unfair to blame Obama for what you all gave Bush a pass on.

3. Think through sudden deportation. There is a huge presence of immigrants in the construction industry, the service industry. In many cases those immigrants are innovative and entrepreneurial--exactly the kinds of skills we need to encourage.

I'm not in favor of sudden anything. I'm in favor of remembering how we got here--Reagan and bipartisan support--and small steps that are fair to those who have been here and raised families here.

None of this is an open border--to the degree the border is open that was Reagan's intent.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7241
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
mac posted:
Quote:
Techno--don't make it up. This:

Quote:
The left apparently isn't concerned with the flow of illegals across the border, particularly the children.

is completely fabricated.


I don't fabricate opinions.

I rarely hear anything from the left that suggests they want to stop the inflow of illegals, especially children. In general the left seems accepting when the issue of the porous border is brought up by the right. I also don't see any Obama government crack down on employers that hire illegals. Why aren't you pissed about that problem?


You have claimed that a good part of the economy in California is dependent on the illegals and their labor (as I recall). So I guess you would want all the companies hiring illegals to get fined, lose business licenses and the illegals sent home. Is that what you want? I don't think so, but I would guess that you would prefer to make them all legal, pay them minimum wage and then everyone is happy. I wonder how much the produce in the fields will cost if that happens? How about housing. If all the construction workers are paid minimum wage, only the one percenters will be able to afford a home in Calif. What happens if the minimum wage goes to $10? I see chaos ahead.

Techno..no politician will go near enforcement of hiring practices, as it relates to undocumented workers. As long as you support the Republican Party and Sam Alito, you get large influence from corporate PAC 's and what politician is going to sabotage his own career barging into Tyson chicken?
They aren't getting paid minimum wage either...the construction guys get $25/ hr. It's an integral part of the economy and supply/demand dictates the terms.
ISO ... Seriously , Geraldo? Are you kidding? Liberals like myself do want a path to citizenship...if Ronny were president, he 'd be primaries by a tea bagger.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3435

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggs said:
Quote:
They aren't getting paid minimum wage either...the construction guys get $25/ hr. It's an integral part of the economy and supply/demand dictates the terms.

I guess it's possible in some places in the country, but if that is so, why haven't I seen any white, Asian, or black construction workers on ANY home building job site in Raleigh NC? At $25 per hour, the jobs should be highly competitive, but the only ones working are Hispanics. $25 per hour? No way. Housing is booming here and new homes typically go for $100 to $150 per sq. ft. Cheap labor to help offset low profit margins.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 7241
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
boggs said:
Quote:
They aren't getting paid minimum wage either...the construction guys get $25/ hr. It's an integral part of the economy and supply/demand dictates the terms.

I guess it's possible in some places in the country, but if that is so, why haven't I seen any white, Asian, or black construction workers on ANY home building job site in Raleigh NC? At $25 per hour, the jobs should be highly competitive, but the only ones working are Hispanics. $25 per hour? No way. Housing is booming here and new homes typically go for $100 to $150 per sq. ft. Cheap labor to help offset low profit margins.

I'm talking California where building costs are 200+ sq/ft...And I dont have an answer as to why Hispanics dominate the workforce, maybe cultural?
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