Out of control at Rowena

biffmalibu · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 556

Apathy does not help anybody.
If there is something that needs to be said, say it.
Who cares if you are not "perfect" in expressing? At least you did something instead of being a wimp doing nothing.
You could be helping them, yourself, or somebody else.
If there is something stupid/dangerous going on, say something.
At least it could be thought-provoking.
Saying nothing helps nobody.

*Actual verbal THREATS are different. That is called ASSAULT and is against the law.

A short personal story:
I was sailing at the Wall recently, a "B-" session with some schlogging and small swell. At one point, I was schlogging badly (and with very little wind in my sail) in the swell zone. A big hotshot windsurfer (from somewhere out of town, possibly Vancouver, BC) snuck up from behind me without warning (from upwind), took my air, and surfed WELL within a mast length of me. That was not only rude, it was DUMB and DANGEROUS; I am an excellent sailor, but even I could still have EASILY by accident dropped my unbreakable carbon hammer (i.e. 14' NoLimitz mast) right on him HARD as he stole my air. That was DUMB and I told him so within about 15 minutes of tracking him down. I did not stew in anger or threaten on the beach. End of story, necessary deed done and session continues. I could have saved his, mine, or somebody else's skull by speaking up.

*If my buddies want to play tricks on me like this and I AGREE to it, it's all fun and games and I'm prepared for it. But this circumstance I did not agree to ahead of time. Getting within a mast length is just DUMB overall.

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935

I'm constantly amazed how many people pass within 4 or 5 feet downwind of me, head-on, when I'm slogging or waterstarting and can't just swerve away but CAN ... accidentally, of course ... drop my mast.

isobars · Joined: 12 Dec 1999 Posts: 20935

johnl · Joined: 05 Jun 1994 Posts: 1330 Location: Hood River OR

surfersteve · Joined: 24 Apr 2007 Posts: 203

Youwindsurf. Now you are just stating the obvious and taking up valuable space for unrealistic situations and solutions. (insert a face if you want)

jp5 · Joined: 19 May 1998 Posts: 3394 Location: OnUr6

This is an interesting read. We had a similar situation in SoCal at Leo Carrillo beach a few years back between two windsurfers and a near collision on a wave. Raised voices, insults hurled, lawsuits threatened, sides chosen, a thread on iWindsurf a mile long. And we thought this kind of thing only happened in SoCal. All but forgotten now. Hopefully this will blow over too.

biffmalibu · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 556

(For the record, I don't "live" to be a contrarian. Nor do I have any grudges against anybody.)

Considering how easy it is to carry out any threat via means (fist, large stick, gun, etc.), I am pretty comfortable arguing that making a verbal theat can be construed almost anywhere to be assault (but not battery; for battery, there must be actual contact). I believe the police routinely successfully charge even the middle finger to be threat of assault. Be careful no cops (who are in a bad mood) are around when flipping the bird!

uwindsurf · Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 968 Location: Classified

biffmalibu · Joined: 30 May 2008 Posts: 556

Wow, that is a big change. So "Yey!" for the First Ammendment and the ACLU! My heros!

I still think it's a bad idea to flip anyone off. Cops and others may not take kindly to it. And this one victory for the ACLU is no guarrantee you will not be arrested for it or get into a fight. "Suspect became belligerent and therefore was subdued...". Etc.

uwindsurf · Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 968 Location: Classified

I think you are confusing Disorderly conduct with Assault.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/08/do-you-have-the-right-to-flip-off-cops.html

The police have been known to arrest people who flip them off for disorderly conduct.

Disorderly conduct laws prevent people from doing things that disturb the peace, but which don't amount to a serious public danger. Public intoxication is an example of the types of acts citable. But these laws are usually broadly written enough to include almost any actions that "disturb the peace." This includes flipping off a cop.

Pretty much every state has a disorderly conduct law in their books. Even so, the question of whether you can be arrested by cops under this law for asking them to read between the lines is a little murky.

Take the 26-year-old man who was arrested last summer for giving the middle finger to police outside a Greenwich Village bar. He recently filed a lawsuit against the city, arguing his First Amendment were violated, the New York Post reports.
Robert Bell, a New York financial services recruiter who lives in Edison, N.J., was leaving the Slaughtered Lamb Pub on West 4th Street about 10 p.m. Aug. 6, 2011, when three officers walked past him, legal documents showed. With the officers' backs to him, Bell raised his middle finger for "one to two seconds," the complaint states.

After his arrest and detainment, Bell decided to file the suit -- which charges police with violating the Constitution, assault, false arrest and imprisonment, and inflicting emotional distress -- because he thought he had been wronged, his attorney Robert Quackenbush said.

Both the Supreme Court and lower courts have ruled that giving cops the finger is a form of protected speech under the First Amendment. Along the same vein, swearing and any other profane speech directed at law enforcement is also protected.

So if flashing the middle finger is protected by the Constitution, why are people getting arrested?

The reason is because disorderly conduct laws generally give cops broad discretion to decide what is and is not disorderly. This means officers can still ruin your day by giving you a ticket and forcing you to go to court to contest it.

Bottom line, you do have a constitutional right to flip off cops. But anyone with good sense probably shouldn't exercise it.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/news/2013/01/04/court-flipping-off-cops-is-constitutional.aspx

A civilian flipping off a police officer can't be cause for a vehicle stop or arrest, a federal appellate court has ruled.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit ruled that the "ancient gesture of insult is not the basis for a reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation or impending criminal activity."

The ruling conforms to existing legal precedent, said Devallis Rutledge, POLICE's legal expert.

"You can contact the person," Rutledge said. "You cannot detain the person. It doesn't provide grounds for arrest. It's just not criminal."

In the most recent case, John Swartz and his wife Judy Mayton-Swartz had sued two St. Johnsville (N.Y.) Police officers who arrested Swartz in May 2006 after he flipped off an officer who was using a radar device at an intersection. Swartz was later charged with a violation of New York's disorderly conduct statute, but the charges were dismissed, reports the Huffington Post.

Richard Insogna, the officer who stopped Swartz and his wife when they arrived at their destination, claimed he pulled the couple over because he believed Swartz was "trying to get my attention for some reason."

Prior courts have ruled that contempt of cop is protected First Amendment speech. The U.S. Supreme Court in City of Houston v. Hill (1987) ruled that the First Amendment "protects a significant amount of verbal criticism and challenge directed at police officers."

The 9th Circuit court confirmed this ruling in 1990's Duran v. the City of Douglas, Arizona.