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Voter "Fraud" or voter disenfranchisement?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sw - I though you were big on the enforcement of the laws about hiring illegals. Now you say they are a good thing for fruits and vegetables, so which is it, enforce the law or let the illegals be?

So, are there any liberals that will answer this question?

For states, should federal funding and Congressional representation be determined by the total (legal and illegal) population of or just by the number of citizens in the state?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno—Aren’t you from a Southern State? Are you really unaware of the 3/5 compromise? It allowed slave states to count slaves as 3/5 of a person for purposes of taxation and representation. Obviously slaves were not considered citizens—until the 14th Amendment.

How sensitive of you to argue that people living in this country and paying taxes should not even be counted—at a time when overt racism has made a strong comeback. Perhaps you should read accounts of the Boston Tea Party, as well as the 14th Amendment.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac said:
Quote:
Are you really unaware of the 3/5 compromise? It allowed slave states to count slaves as 3/5 of a person for purposes of taxation and representation.


Quote:
Though Southern slave owners asserted that slaves were held as property, Southern delegates at the Constitutional Convention wanted slaves to count as full persons for purposes of determining representation in Congress. Including slaves as part of the Southern population would give the South disproportionately greater representation in Congress and therefore more influence in forming the country’s laws. By contrast, Northern delegates favored omitting slaves entirely when determining representation and therefore denying Southern states the advantage in the national legislature. The compromise allowed three-fifths of the slave population to count toward determining representation.

https://www.heritage.org/constitution/content/pdf/Unit-7.pdf

Seems like California is acting like an old southern state. No surprise.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, I've been very clear where I stand. Most importantly, we need significant immigration reform, and that would include a strict E-Verify system for hiring. If illegals can't prove their citizenship, or don't have the necessary paperwork allowing them to work in the US, they won't be able to find work. For those that ignore the law and irresponsibly hire illegals, there should be a steep criminal price to be paid. No screwing around or looking the other way like the Republicans are classically known for doing.

Should we allow foreign workers into the nation to do many of the jobs that Americans won't do? Yes, but only in accordance with lawful means where their status is known and can be verified.

Lastly, with respect to the census, all folks living in the US should be counted, irrespective of their citizenship. You can't act like some folks don't matter. Needless to say, but I will. Only US citizens are allowed to vote.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sw earlier said:
Quote:
techno900, I guess you really don't appreciate the fact the much of the fresh fruit and vegetables harvested and processed in this nation is done by Hispanics, most of which are illegal immigrants. That can be said for most meat processing and packaging too. The value that these folks contribute is immense, and our national economy depends greatly on their work ethic and determination, but you would prefer that they be ignored for petty and decidedly selfish reasons.


Then he said:
Quote:
If illegals can't prove their citizenship, or don't have the necessary paperwork allowing them to work in the US, they won't be able to find work. For those that ignore the law and irresponsibly hire illegals, there should be a steep criminal price to be paid.


I guess you want your cake and eat it too. Make them all legal and then enforce the laws. Ok, fine, but that only works when we gain control of the border. With about 200,000 illegals sneaking in each year that are not caught, that pretty much prevents any real reform from taking place, otherwise, we will be back in the same boat a decade from now. I belive that's Trump's issue. If you want Trump (or any other President) to work on reform, then help him/them gain control of the border first.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
sw earlier said:
Quote:
techno900, I guess you really don't appreciate the fact the much of the fresh fruit and vegetables harvested and processed in this nation is done by Hispanics, most of which are illegal immigrants. That can be said for most meat processing and packaging too. The value that these folks contribute is immense, and our national economy depends greatly on their work ethic and determination, but you would prefer that they be ignored for petty and decidedly selfish reasons.


Then he said:
Quote:
If illegals can't prove their citizenship, or don't have the necessary paperwork allowing them to work in the US, they won't be able to find work. For those that ignore the law and irresponsibly hire illegals, there should be a steep criminal price to be paid.


I guess you want your cake and eat it too. Make them all legal and then enforce the laws. Ok, fine, but that only works when we gain control of the border. With about 200,000 illegals sneaking in each year that are not caught, that pretty much prevents any real reform from taking place, otherwise, we will be back in the same boat a decade from now. I belive that's Trump's issue. If you want Trump (or any other President) to work on reform, then help him/them gain control of the border first.



They won't open borders. Maybe not all of them including SW, but it is clear many do..
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They didn't sneak in to Trump properties--they were imported. Trump has never been willing to e-verify. And Republicans have never been willing to require and enforce e-verify. But you guys will still suck up to Trump--and lie about many things. for example, the false claim by Bard that tens of thousands voted illegally in Texas. More fake news. The real story?

Quote:

The president of the United States is once again spreading unsubstantiated claims about rampant voter fraud and undermining faith in the integrity of our democracy. This time, he’s claiming that 95,000 noncitizens were registered to vote in Texas and more than half have actually voted. These numbers, he concluded, are “just the tip of the iceberg.”

Unsurprisingly, Trump’s tweets are in need of a serious fact-check. Here’s what is actually happening in Texas.

On Friday, the Texas secretary of state announced that he was sending local election officials a list of registered voters who had been flagged because, at some point, they purportedly had provided a document indicating they were a noncitizen — like a green card or work visa — while obtaining a driver’s license or ID card from the Texas Department of Public Safety. Among the people on the list, about 58,000 people may have cast a ballot in one or more elections from 1996-2018, according to the secretary of state.

Here’s the catch: Texas doesn’t actually know that the voters flagged are the same people who appear to be noncitizens. In fact, in its own advisory, the secretary of state’s office emphasized that all names were classified as “WEAK” matches, meaning that it is entirely up to the county whether or not they take action to purge these individuals from the rolls.

Even if they are accurate matches, Texas doesn’t know that the people are still noncitizens. Each year, between 52,000 and 63,000 Texans naturalize as U.S. citizens. Comparing current voter rolls with documents that people provided in the past, some more than 20 years ago, fails to account for people who became U.S. citizens at any time after they first obtained a state ID or driver’s license.

Texas driver licenses and ID cards also do not expire for a full six years after they are issued, so the odds are high that tens of thousands of people on the list of flagged voters are, in fact, eligible to vote. Given the flawed nature of this methodology, yesterday the ACLU of Texas and partners notified the Texas secretary of state that the advisory should be rescinded before any counties take action on it, and put all 254 counties in Texas on alert that they should not take action based on this advisory alone and must ensure that they do not act discriminatorily or infringe on the right to vote.

Unfortunately, these huge caveats did not stop Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton from tweeting out the news in all-caps, “VOTER FRAUD ALERT,” nor President Trump from declaring that “all over the country, especially in California, voter fraud is rampant.”

We’ve heard these types of claims before.

PROTECT OUR RIGHT TO BOYCOTT

SEND YOUR MESSAGEIn 2012, the ACLU took on this issue in Florida when election authorities claimed to have identified around 180,000 noncitizens who were registered to vote. These numbers collapsed under scrutiny: The initial 180,000 estimate was whittled to 2,625 possible noncitizens on the rolls, just over 1 percent of the original claim. That list was also riddled with errors, and ultimately only 85 people were removed from the rolls, out of a total of about 12 million voters at the time.

In 2018, a Pennsylvania review of the state’s voter rolls found about 8,000 noncitizens on the rolls, a sizeable population. The culprit? A software glitch at the DMV that inadvertently registered individuals who had identified themselves as noncitizens. And as significant as that DMV error was, it ultimately implicated less than .01 percent of the eight million registered voters in the state.

The bottom line: Voter fraud is extremely rare. States using unreliable data to justify purges of eligible voters, however, is not. In fact, Texas has already begun walking back its claims, telling counties today that there are individuals who should not have been included on this list.

While Texas should be learning from the lessons of Florida and Pennsylvania, there are signs that they may be taking cues from Kansas instead. As reported by The Texas Tribune, the Texas Legislature may take up proposals this session to require voters to show proof of citizenship in order to register.

Kris Kobach, the former Kansas secretary of state and one of the leading proponents of the voter fraud myth, championed a law in 2013 that required people to show citizenship documents, like a passport or birth certificate, in order to register to vote. From 2013-2016, the law blocked more than 35,000 eligible Kansans from registering.

Kobach claimed the law was necessary to stop noncitizens voting, and yet at trial, he was only able to identify 39 noncitizens — out of 1.8 million Kansas voters — who registered to vote over a nearly 20-year period. He was not able to show that these instances constituted intentional cases of fraud, rather than mistakes stemming from clerical errors. Regardless, Kobach also claimed that these numbers represent “just the tip of the iceberg.”

If Texas is intent on following in Kobach’s failed footsteps, they should remember just that — it failed spectacularly.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry techno900, I don't buy the foolish right wing talking points about building a border wall before dealing with immigration reform. I'm a lot smarter than those believing that kind of nonsense.

Like it or not, you need to deal with all of the illegal immigrants in the US, put a viable immigration system in place before building more walls, and you have to be totally dedicated to enforcing it. We have hundreds of miles of walls already, and it's pretty damn clear to me that walls really don't work to stem the tide, especially given the fact that immigrants use many other means of entry.

The principle reason that Ronald Reagan's immigration and amnesty program of the 80s didn't work is because nobody, particularly Republicans, didn't actively enforce existing laws to prevent further illegal immigration. If you have any grasp of the situation, you would recognize this, but I have think that maybe you don't.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Sorry techno900, I don't buy the foolish right wing talking points about building a border wall before dealing with immigration reform. I'm a lot smarter than those believing that kind of nonsense.
How Dean of you.
You know what they say about people to have to tout their own intellect......
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever, NW30.

Looking back, what was Donald Trump claiming about his intellect and perfect genius? How bajaDean of Donald Trump, right?

It's so easy mix it up and create what you want.
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