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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| If you"re all about the downhill I can see the emotor being sweet for chugging back up the hills. I did my first life serviced runs this summer with the boys. Pretty intense to see the least, and talk about dangerous. Even with my MX background I felt nervous on some of the blue trails, wouldn't even consider the black diamonds. |
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MalibuGuru
Joined: 11 Nov 1993
Posts: 9300
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:33 am Post subject: |
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If it weren't for the effort required to climb steep hills, it would be a lot like downhill skiing.
One hill I went up had my disk brakes smoking on the way down. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| GURGLETROUSERS wrote: | The great outdoors is open to all, and consists of far more than the special trails anybody chooses to build C.B. You single out one well worn objection to the use of E bikes, which smacks of elitism.
We get a similar elitist reaction over here, usually from young hot-shots who, if they had their way, would have the sales of even unassisted top of the range mountain bikes restricted only to those who had the skill and ability to make proper use of them. Certainly not to over-moneyed 'toss pot' middle aged creeps, as they see fit to label such people. |
GT
Trail building and routing where I live is a complicated process. Sometimes it takes decades to get the required permits and access. This often requires multiple user groups...hikers, MTB, horses to come together to reach compromises and get a trail built.
I one of the jurisdictions that I ride MTB was lumped with motorbikes by the BLM. All trails open to bikes must be open to motorcycles. The result was that the bike trails became very difficult to use...ruined...by heavy motorcycle traffic. It took many meetings and years to convince the agency and other trail users that MTB and motorcycles are not the same.
Electric assist bikes threaten to undermine this effort by blurring the line.
There are plenty of backcountry roads open to motorbikes that electric assist bikes can utilize. I am not suggesting anyone be denied access to the great outdoors.
If creating a venue where strength and technique is rewarded is elitist, then I am guilty. But, I see electric assist as another attempt at the dumbing down of America. It's not supposed to be easy.
If I start observing e bikers at trail maintenance efforts, maybe I will change my opinion. But, in all the years I tried to repair trails used by motorbikes too, I never encountered a motorcycle rider.
I wonder if Malibu G works on the trails he rides?
Last edited by coboardhead on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| mrgybe wrote: | | GT, Completely agree. We have hundreds of miles of paved and unpaved bike/ running trails in the Washington DC area, some stretching out to West Virginia. Many people I know, including my next door neighbor who bikes serious distances, have stopped using a number of the principal trails because they are intimidated, or have been run into, by hot shots shooting past at unsafe speeds, frequently yelling at slower users to get out of the way. It's all about "me". Seems that attitude is not restricted the DC area. |
I am sorry this is your world... Or your friend's perception. But, the fact of the matter here is that some trails are for hot shots, some are for intermediates and some are mixed use....hikers runners and horses. Conflicts are extremely rare. Why? Because there is respect for what the other users are getting out of the use of that particular trail.
There is nothing wrong with organizing trail use to satisfy one segment of the user population. It is a poor use of resources to make everything a one size fits all model. Respect goes both ways. I respect a young dude's right to push his limits...on the trails designed for that use. What's wrong with that? |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:48 am Post subject: |
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C.B. I take your points. The legal systems in our two countries are different. We have freedom of access (fought for) to our moors and mountains, but we still have designated 'routes' classified as Footpaths, Bridle Ways, and Green Lanes. Motor vehicles (4 by 4's, motor cycles) are forbidden to use anything but Green lanes, (rigidly enforced, often with CCTV cameras on main routes) and bikers are supposedly restricted to Bridal Ways, but, with the explosion in M.T.B. popularity that ruling is mostly ignored since it would prevent us from accessing all of the best Moors and Dales.
Most M.T.B ers long since spilled over to 'footpath' tracks up mountain sides, and most hikers accept the normal give and take, and often find it hilarious, especially when I struggle to carry my bike up a cliff-side. Most people accept that in a small grossly overcrowded country where all, even hikers, had to fight for open access, we all have a need to do our' things'. It is more or less now accepted that we bike riders need to be allowed to access such areas.
I do not see a problem with E bikes, in that they are clearly just silent ordinary mountain bikes, with a little help for those who, for whatever reason, need it. I would be against classifying them as motor vehicles, just to appease those who see them as an affront to their concept of what mountain biking should be all about. |
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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| MalibuGuru wrote: | If it weren't for the effort required to climb steep hills, it would be a lot like downhill skiing.
One hill I went up had my disk brakes smoking on the way down. |
You really need to be on a downhill specific bike, otherwise you risk going over the bars and losing your brakes. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: |
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GT. I suppose some of my opinion stems from what I consider to be what MTB riding is all about. I train hard on my road bike so I can make the climbs on the trails I helped build.
But, the technical parts of these trails are sensitive to torque. As you know, sometimes...often...the move on a technical portion of a trail has much more to do with finesse than strength. Widespread use of additional power available to those who cannot, or more likely will not, develop those techniques will diminish the quality of the riding experience we work so hard to maintain.
There are several high alpine trails I ride regularily. They are under constant threat of closure to bikes...largely as a result of aesthetic concerns of a local hiking group. We attend their meetings, we maintain the trails, we are religious about trail etiquette. E bikes will allow the opportunity for casual riders to impact these trails and the progress we have made on keeping the access open.
Largely, in this case, because of laziness. |
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mrgybe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5180
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | I am sorry this is your world... Or your friend's perception. But, the fact of the matter here is that some trails are for hot shots, some are for intermediates and some are mixed use....hikers runners and horses. Conflicts are extremely rare. Why? Because there is respect for what the other users are getting out of the use of that particular trail. |
It didn't sound very respectful when you dismissively referred to "middle aged guys" with "machines". Do you also ban young people who are stronger and fitter than you, but can't afford the lightweight bikes that help you go faster? As you say, respect goes both ways. If the trails are private........fine, add whatever restrictions you like. If they are public, I see nothing wrong with gaining a small assist to tackle them........just like the benefit from a lightweight bike. |
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coboardhead
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4303
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mrgybe wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | I am sorry this is your world... Or your friend's perception. But, the fact of the matter here is that some trails are for hot shots, some are for intermediates and some are mixed use....hikers runners and horses. Conflicts are extremely rare. Why? Because there is respect for what the other users are getting out of the use of that particular trail. |
It didn't sound very respectful when you dismissively referred to "middle aged guys" with "machines". Do you also ban young people who are stronger and fitter than you, but can't afford the lightweight bikes that help you go faster? As you say, respect goes both ways. If the trails are private........fine, add whatever restrictions you like. If they are public, I see nothing wrong with gaining a small assist to tackle them........just like the benefit from a lightweight bike. |
No. While I have little respect for the idea that one can attach a motor instead of working out, the issue is really about maintaining access in an environment with sensitivity to motorized use. It took us decades to reach the point that MTB use is compatible as a non motorized use of the trails.
Just for your education. MTB riding is largely about technique. Keeping the spin of the wheels in check while you climb using body positioning. The idea on a climb is to caress the trail...at least good riders do this. Applying a motor assist as a substitute for competent riding will damage some if the trails.
My objection to e bikes stems from MG comments, and others like him, that now they can ride a particular steep climb. I don't really care if they are used in venues where they do not damage trails or create user conflict.
There are, literally, hundreds of miles of trails open to motorized use in this area. My objection is that e bike users want to be considered with the bicyclists and not other motorized users.
If someone wants to take the jeep road to the top if the assent...either in a jeep with a bike on back or an e bike for the climb...well that's OK if not a bit wimpy in both cases. But, stay off the backcountry and sensitive technical climbs or no one will have them available.
Last edited by coboardhead on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mat-ty
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| coboardhead wrote: | | mrgybe wrote: | | coboardhead wrote: | | I am sorry this is your world... Or your friend's perception. But, the fact of the matter here is that some trails are for hot shots, some are for intermediates and some are mixed use....hikers runners and horses. Conflicts are extremely rare. Why? Because there is respect for what the other users are getting out of the use of that particular trail. |
It didn't sound very respectful when you dismissively referred to "middle aged guys" with "machines". Do you also ban young people who are stronger and fitter than you, but can't afford the lightweight bikes that help you go faster? As you say, respect goes both ways. If the trails are private........fine, add whatever restrictions you like. If they are public, I see nothing wrong with gaining a small assist to tackle them........just like the benefit from a lightweight bike. |
No. While I have little respect for the idea that one can attach a motor instead of working out, the issue is really about maintaining access in an environment with sensitivity to motorized use. It took us decades to reach the point that MTB use is compatible as a non motorized use of the trails.
Just for your education. MTB riding is largely about technique. Keeping the spin of the wheels in check while you climb using body positioning. The idea on a climb is to caress the trail...at least good riders do this. Applying a motor assist as a substitute for competent riding will damage some if the trails.
My objection to e bikes stems from MG comments, and others like him, that now they can ride a particular steep climb. I don't really care if they are used in venues where they do not damage trails or create user conflict. |
I'm getting the impression you are a hard tail kind a guy. |
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