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Looping before the big 4.0 - crap only 6 days
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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 980
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

manuel wrote:
True, I straighten it at the pop but hold it back thereafter as I hang on.


If you can break your front arm habit, the sail will do absolutely everything for you. All you need to do is get it out "in front" of you, and leave it out in front of you, the whole way around. Perhaps Kevin's tip, or the many other front arm tips that you've received, will help get you over the hurdle? I would recommend forgetting about everything else at this point, and purely focusing on keeping your front arm straighter, longer.

I know that you like to think about stuff- when you reflexively pull in your front arm, you're minimizing all of your other efforts and you aren't actually sheeting in anymore. You're simply doing a pull up on the boom, when you sheet in with both hands at the same time. The sail will no longer offer any "whipping" power as soon as you bend your front arm.

Dry land exercise- This is a slow speed low power exercise- do everything slowly and with great emphasis on control. Hold a boom like you're just cruising along. Have a buddy provide gentle pull on the opposite harness lines, to mimic light sail power. Now, pretend that you're approaching a ramp- slide your back hand RIDICULOUSLY far back on the boom, and initiate your loop by bringing your back hand closer to your body and allowing your front arm to... relax.... and straighten out in front of you. Your buddy's continued gentle pull should allow the boom to pull you off balance and start spinning you around, with the boom leading the way. Have your buddy pull you around in a complete circle, with your feet being the center of spin. He'll have to kind of walk around you in a bigger circle. Your goal is to keep your front arm straight the whole time, and feel the boom pulling you around. Relax and allow the boom to stay out front, pulling you around in a circle...

You'll feel tension on the back of your front shoulder, and in your front arm's tricep. On the back arm, you'll probably feel tension on the front side of your back shoulder, and in your back arm's bicep.

Now try it again, but mimic your reflexes and bend your front arm halfway through. Chances are, you'll regain control and stop spinning pretty much immediately... This is what seems to be happening to you in the water...

So if you practice keeping your front arm extended and trusting the boom's pull to do everything for you, hopefully you can start to break your front arm habit, and you'll start to progress in those loops!

Keep up the good work!

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great tips! Anything that can wake up a certain muscle zone has to be beneficial. I wasn't feeling 100% today but yet had a good productive day and I think I've finally got it.

Basically pop with front hand up and windward of nose, bearing off with the board and leaning forward/sideways with body, both arms extended. Then, keep front arm straight sheet in and bring board under bum.

Now I need to do this with more speed or a higher ramp or both because I'm short on clearance when just powered up and cannot keep my board or cannot waterstart.

991 attempts. Maybe next session Very Happy !? Sounds too familiar, but at least now, since I've been bearing off my crashes are loops that lack height and rotation not just random crashes. I did get a strong back slap today, I'm hoping a more sideways rotation helps since I don't go so high...

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

997 attempts as of yesterday Smile ! 3 more and we're good but what a quest. I guess it's been only 1 year+ and sometimes it takes more time than tries to assimilate something.

I still can't believe the difference between front loop and back loop in terms of what needs to be done. A backloop can be landed without doing anything at all while the front loop, pop tall, tuck, etc, for me, super complicated!!!!
Had a nice try yesterday throwing the move right off of the wave (and not a split second after) but still need a straighter front arm, sheet in harder, keep front arm straight, tuck under back leg, etc.

It's always more and more with this move. It does feel like with each try it becomes natural but wow so much needs to be done to get it inside of us.

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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 980
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

manuel wrote:
997 attempts as of yesterday Smile ! 3 more and we're good but what a quest. I guess it's been only 1 year+ and sometimes it takes more time than tries to assimilate something.

I still can't believe the difference between front loop and back loop in terms of what needs to be done. A backloop can be landed without doing anything at all while the front loop, pop tall, tuck, etc, for me, super complicated!!!!
Had a nice try yesterday throwing the move right off of the wave (and not a split second after) but still need a straighter front arm, sheet in harder, keep front arm straight, tuck under back leg, etc.

It's always more and more with this move. It does feel like with each try it becomes natural but wow so much needs to be done to get it inside of us.


Yes, the only thing you need to think about is relaxing and straightening your front arm.

All of that other stuff is just distracting you from your biggest issue- your front arm. None of that other stuff matters at all if you won't keep your front arm extended.

The sail will do everything else for you, if you just keep your front arm extended as you add some power with your back hand.

Have you tried the dry land exercise yet? How about the exercise that I described on page fourteen of this thread? Taking a few minutes to get some new muscle memory will probably be quite valuable for you, and should help you break the habit of reflexively pulling in on your front hand.


One last question, now that I just told you to forget about everything else Laughing Do you usually sail overpowered with a rig that is tuned for control in overpowered conditions? (extra downhaul, extra outhaul) Or do you tend to rig a smaller sail but gutsier with less downhaul? If you aren't already, I would recommend the latter. You might have to wait for a gust to get moving, but the sail will be easier to move around and position, and it'll have more "whip" than a larger, detuned sail will have.

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philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

manuel wrote:


I still can't believe the difference between front loop and back loop in terms of what needs to be done. A backloop can be landed without doing anything at all while the front loop, pop tall, tuck, etc, for me, super complicated!!!!



Hah! I have had the exact opposite experience. For me the hardest part of forwards was finding the balls to pull the trigger. That took four years but I sailed away from my second attempt and haven't looked back. I tell people it is the easiest move in windsurfing. Now back loops, those are complicated! I'm probably up to your # of front loop attempts with no success. It doesn't help that I only sail in the Gorge where the ramps are straight upwind and only vertical when it's very windy. Any tips?
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rexi



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 155

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe wind-nc is spot on. When i started trying forwards I was lucky enough to have a pro sailor staying at my house and what she did was to have me do those simple hand movements in my living room holding a boom. -and the main focus on extending that front arm. After that it didnīt take long until i was able to sail away.

And although iīm no expert at forwards i always think about my front arm when i do them. Move both hands back on the boom and punch that front hand forward. Sheeting in kind of just happens naturally when i do that. second thing i think about is to stand kind of straight when i go for the jump, similar to entering spocks or vulcans, not quite as upright but just donīt be hanging off the boom.
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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone, so many posts that I missed???

Wind-NC.com wrote:

Yes, the only thing you need to think about is relaxing and straightening your front arm.


100% agree. Moving the center of traction away from us is that lets the gear moves downwind the fastest while we hang on. I'm trying to straighten it as I go up the wave but sometimes I'm too much upwind or the chop disappears on me and my brain fills with void/fog Very Happy Very Happy !!!!! However, it does seem that it's not as important as throwing it forward (even late) and keeping it there.

Wind-NC.com wrote:
Have you tried the dry land exercise yet? How about the exercise that I described on page fourteen of this thread?


Yes, but once planing, my body seems to forget it all. I can catapult semi-planing off of the straps and waterstart almost right away. However, when in the straps planing, I feel like my board is in the way and the way to get over this ultimate hurdle was to head downwind first and the more the better.


Wind-NC.com wrote:
Do you usually sail overpowered with a rig that is tuned for control in overpowered conditions? (extra downhaul, extra outhaul) Or do you tend to rig a smaller sail but gutsier with less downhaul? If you aren't already, I would recommend the latter. You might have to wait for a gust to get moving, but the sail will be easier to move around and position, and it'll have more "whip" than a larger, detuned sail will have.


This is a really interesting topic and one of the important remaining questions I have about the sport!!!!!

In brief, I much much prefer a smaller sail that is baggy and quite handful in the gusts than an overly large sail that takes more time to throw around even though it may be faster. Not only the smaller sail is more fun but it also is less physical (except way underpowered) and lets me try more things.

Along with this I have discovered the benefit of a larger board too. So much easier to recover, pops over more easily, climbs higher up, etc.

I prefer the larger sail when the wind is very light possibly gusty (but light), waves are larger and I need to move around, head upwind, etc. It's also easier when trying shove-its/shakas. And when it's light I can generate more speed off a rounder waves.

philodog wrote:
[...]Now back loops, those are complicated! I'm probably up to your # of front loop attempts with no success. It doesn't help that I only sail in the Gorge where the ramps are straight upwind and only vertical when it's very windy. Any tips?


I've had bad experiences (and still do) when overpowered and going too far upwind. If you watch videos from guys in Greece, they have the same issues, upwind ramps, very windy and they look so over-rotated but I'm not sure there's much to do about that given the angle of things and how the rotation takes place.

I need to know more about how your landings happen? Flat with sail ripping out of your hands? Any under-rotations sometimes? Lulls, more wind-shadowed places? That's a whole other topic but the farther away from underpowered side-on conditions with beautiful waves we are the more difficult it'll be and more active work needs to happen (probably trying to mimic what it'd look like if the conditions where there). This is from my very limited experience though!

Back to the parallel with front loops, they are much easier with a ramp coming more ahead of us so that we can hit it downwind and have the board head upwards as it goes along the wave. Side-on towards onshore conditions will make the board hit the wave more parallel and I find this more technical, needing greater attention to timing, etc, unless one can hit the back of the chop/swell.

For sure, if one has the will to throw themselves forward off a decent-size wave "ā la cheese-roll," still then how to learn it off of flat water then?

rexi wrote:
Move both hands back on the boom and punch that front hand forward. Sheeting in kind of just happens naturally when i do that. second thing i think about is to stand kind of straight when i go for the jump, similar to entering spocks or vulcans, not quite as upright but just donīt be hanging off the boom.


The problem with punching the front hand is when not steering the board downwind. I don't know if I'm the only one with the problem but every time I was getting more confident, I'd always run (fall) into this problem. Throw the sail too much towards the nose and not enough across and the board ducks down hits the water and off I went. Happened to me so many times! Then I got stuck psychologically and not wanting to go at all until I understood again and again to head downwind first then it's not a big deal.

It's so amazing how we all approach moves differently and how our body does things automatically. How youngsters do things while not even understanding how because their body automatically does things for them.

Anyway, now I'm afraid of the landing when I get whipped around a couple of times and start working on the landing hopefully this ultimate fear will go away and I won't try losing the board mid-air or anything like that. What a quest!

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rigitrite



Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 520
Location: Kansas City

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is it possible that you can sail away from backies (much harder) and you're still having issues with the forward.
From a classic movie: "Yer killin' me Smalls!!!"

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Life can be tough, but in the end we will prevail Very Happy !!!

I don't know, I'm thinking backloop wave, backloop body. I know of many riders here that go into backoops but never forwards (including kids). I know of one guy only who worked on forwards and landed them before attempting or at least getting somewhat decent backloops. He was mid-20s and it took him 5 months, he was getting attempts with each session pretty much, so at least 3-5 and sailed nearly everyday but did have bad conditions during his stay.

A few observations from this video:
- Sometimes he waits a while before pulling the trigger? (waiting to hit the right chop angle?)
- His first forwards are amazing and slowly get sloppy
- He appears a bit underpowered without going super fast
- His pop is somewhat low but the way the board comes back around seems lightening fast!



1038 attempts over here... slow slow progress. I don't have a good one off of a proper wave or with enough speed. Sometimes I can waterstart away but without the board.

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kevinkan



Joined: 07 Jun 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest altering your approach to the loop. A more downwind takeoff will make it less technical with fewer moving parts. The more upwind the takeoff, the more technique and steps are required.

Some mast cam POV loops from the other day here. Can see the front are straightening.

https://vimeo.com/278566385

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