Kona Carb One vs Phanton 293 bat wings.

[gustavoluzardo]

Equipment and sailor:

I have had a Carve 171 (271 x 85.5 cm x 171 lts) for few years. Recently I acquired the WindSUP Freeride 12.2 (12.2 x 30 in x 237 lts). On both boards, I use, up to 15 mph winds, a 9.5 Ezzy Freeride V five. Over that I use 6.5 Ezzy Cheetah. I am 6’2’’, 245 pounds on a good day. I use harness, but have never been able to enter foot straps.


Background:

Ok, so, on the Freeride, to my amazement, I have taken that board to planning at over 20 mph, I was not sure, if you could get planning-feeling like a short board, but I certainly have been at the limit of control on my sail, and the board feels very very fast, “skimming” over the surface, quite nicely, with the dagger deployed. It has been a great feeling and sensation. Yet, It is quite heavy, and perhaps too long. I enjoyed the tremendous stability, which lets me up-haul / hoist the sail almost under any conditions. I suspect, given its weight, I have more than enough stability, and could sacrifice some, to attain a “lighter” feel. Upwind is very good, which I need.

However, on the Carve, not a single time since I have had it, in identical conditions as I mentioned for the other board, I have stopped feeling that I am “pushing water”. I always turn to try to see what the tails is doing, and is either sunken on revolving water, or when it appears above, like I was able to finally detach it from the water, it STILL feels like I am pushing water; needless to say, if I lose any speed, it falls immediately to sunken. Also, it is a little hard to control when up hauling in the middle of chop after a splash. I imagine that the problem is somewhat technique, but also, my weight. Upwind sucks!!! btw.It simply won't plane unless at least 15 mph, and yet even if I move my front foot from right next to the mast, the board sinks the back, stops, and turns upwind.


Question:

So here it is: I would like to find a board that is LIGHTER and shorter than the Freeride, perhaps compromising a little stability, but longer, more stable than the Carve, and perhaps more floaty, so is able to come on to plane lifting my weight, a little faster or on less wind, and stay on a little longer, during lulls. The Freeride has no foot straps.

So, find the in-between, I am looking at Phanton 295 (295, 71, 217 lts) vs CarbOne (350 x 70 cm x 220 lts). I see that the phantom would be a little heavier (-), shorter (+), and more resilient to rig strikes(++). The kona can be fragile and I do have my reservations about the possibility of ping-pong'ing it, or denting such an expensive board. However, I care the most about speed and earliest planning possible, or low wind conditions. I understand that the Kona is best x these 2 traits.



Which one would you buy??

[adywind]

My 2cents on this: you don't need another board-you have 2 good ones already. What you need is a sail inbetween your current ones and more TOW on the Carve. You are at that critical moment when you have to find the magical combination of board, rig and wind and water state to make your first planing in the footstraps happen. My first short board-Core 160- and the sail they sold me with it a 6.5 were a bad match also /they tryed to sell me a 6.0 actually/ and I struggled with it for a few months because it never felt right. It was too small to power me up in light wind when the water was flat and when the wind was strong enough there was so much chop that the too big of a board was leaping around like crazy not giving me a minute to pull myself together and focus on my stance.The magic for me happened when I finally bought a 7.5. That sail with a ~15 mph wind and flat water got me into the straps and planing one beautiful sunny day in 2011. I never felt the need to use the center dagger and even stoped attaching it to the board after while.
Back to you I think the right size would be a 8.5 with 2 cambers /first choice/ or a 8.0 -7 batten camberless. The 6.5 you already have is too small for the Carve, but you can use it with the WindSUP to cruse or practice turns in 0-15mph, the 9.5 is to big for you at the moment and by trying to resist it's pull you lean back putting your weight over your back foot, the tail sinks, board turns upwind and its game over.
My recommendation before opting for another board is to get yourself one of the before mentioned sails, wait for a day with no less then a 10 mph low and gusts preferably over 15 mph but not over 20mph , go to a spot with the flattest water possible rig right and start practicing with the Carve. Remember :you need to push down with your front arm on the boom and with your front foot near the mast foot , but keeping your back one in the space between the front and back foot straps almost weightless to make the board go slightly downwind and start planing.
For home work you can go to the web page of Dave White /another heavy windsurfing guru/ and ask him for pointers. You can find good articles online for sail sizes and early planing techniques from Peter Hart and other coaches aswell .
http://www.windsurf.co.uk/peter-hart-up-and-riding-in-a-flash/
PS:I appologize if I sound too patronizing , but that's the best I was able to come with on my phone with the basic English and the short time I have. Sorry!

[J64TWB]

18mph winds should be your sweet spot with a sail in the middle as adywind suggests. You'll get that carve up and running.

[swchandler]

When you said that you've had the Carve for a few years, but have never been in the straps, I have to admit to being a bit surprised. Is it because you lack the necessary wind?

Unless you can move back on the board, you will continue to push water forever, because you're not utilizing the board's flatter section of the rockerline in the tail section. Assuming you have enough wind to plane, if you get back into the front footstrap, you'll be amazed how the board will suddenly take off. Maybe part of your problem is related to the position of your harness lines. If they are too forward they won't easily allow you to rake the sail back to move back on the board. I would recommend testing your ability to move back enough to get your front foot in the straps. To help in this, you'll want to make sure that you're footstraps are in the most forward positions. Also, very it's important to bear off to help gain enough speed to move back. Don't worry so much about losing ground, because once you're in the front strap and planing, your ability to turn to windward improves greatly.

If you continue to have a problem, you have to ask yourself whether you've got enough power from the 6.5, as it's on the small side for such a big board. As mentioned, a bigger sail in the 7.5 to 8.0 range will be an important asset in getting the power you need. Also, you need to properly match your fin to your sail size. What size fin are you using right now on the Carve? A guy your size should be using a least a 46cm fin with the 6.5, and a bit bigger (50-52cm) for a 7.5-8.0 sail.

Regarding getting a new board, I wouldn't until you can overcome your problem getting into the straps.

[jingebritsen]

mast foot pressure as andy says is everything in windsurfing.

rounding upwind is a result of too little mast foot pressure. press down on the boom with mostly your front hand but the back a bit too.

videos galore online. peter hart etc.

[beaglebuddy]

I believe you just aren't powered up enough, on your longboard you probably aren't planing but fast gliding or perhaps planing off the daggerboard instead of the rear fin. With a bit more power the carve 171 will pop up over it's bow wake and take off like a rocket. A short wide board like the carve will push a lot of water and not be fun to ride until it pops up onto a plane, then you can go for the foot straps. For the carve you will need a big fin, boom high and mast not too far forward in the mast track. I wouldn't get another board but instead another sail around 8M.

[joethewindsufa]

think you have some winning combinations
as heavyweights , we are at a disadvantage
however, NOT using footstraps NEVER stopped one from planing
your carve 171 with 85 cm width and a 50+ cm fin would be just like my BIC
Techno Formula 170liter/93cm width with TR-4 10-oh and 50+ cm fin
here i am in about 12 to 14 knots and not in the straps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3wvpgq0pyY
sure lotsa sails n fins help with different conditions
but that all comes with time
you should be able to plane in about 15 knots
it's the schlogging that's a pain
the smaller sail is ok to play on the SUP and one day you can get an 8.x sail
IF the 9.5 is too much , you can get an 8.x earlier, but that won't plane you until about 18 knots - starting to get bigger winds then
so far what has helped me the most was losing weight
unfortunately this was not a good year and stayed around 235
my technique and style are FAR from ideal
but i do enjoy myself on the water !!!
btw some of the fastest windsurfers are the heavyweights
HANG IN THERE !!

[swchandler]

No offense joethewindsufa, but if you would have moved back into those footstraps in the video, you'd be styling on a higher level. Believe me, the planing section of the board is always optimized by being in the straps. It's in the physics of any board design.

[joethewindsufa]

no offense taken
i am WELL aware that the next step is GET IN THE STRAPS (pun intended)
on the other hand, it does NOT stop one from planing
which is what the OP is complaining about

[gvogelsang]

So, back to the original question.

Which board will plane easier - the Kona Carb One of the Phantom 295?