myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
4.0 or 4.8 Aerotech WindSUP?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder whether older longboard sails wouldn't still do well in subplaning on my longboard and perhaps better than today's revamped longboard sails like the Aerotech SUP sail or the Bic SUP , at a fraction of the price. .
Somebody is selling a Neil Pryde Garda 6.2 rotational sail. The seller says it is from the 90ís. The sail appears fully battened,though, which is not what the original longboard sails of the period were. The longboard sails were, from what I recall, soft sails, partially battened, if at all. This sail looks more like one of today's planing-designed sails, even though the design is definitely much older. Can anybody recognize this sail and tell the approximate year it came out?

Thanks

Ittiandro



Neil Pryde.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  556.26 KB
 Viewed:  2842 Time(s)

Neil Pryde.JPG


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you'll be happy with the sail in the picture. You'll most likely be back to where you were with other sails. i.e. you want the sail fuller, but the battens stick out in front of the mast when you try to make it so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bic Windsup 11.6 ft amd I weigh 85 kg. .
The winds here are about between 10-12 knts about 40% of the time, another 40% around 15 knts and rarely in the upper teens area. In these conditions, I subplane most of the time.

For a time I have been using only one sail, an old NP 6.2 Garda. Probably not the best, but it has a good latitude and I could use it to subplane both in the 10-12 knts area and in the 15+ knts area, by tuning it for lighter or stronger winds. Subsequently, I bought an 8.0 m2 HSM sail for more power, but it is basically the same as the old Garda.

I was thinking of going to an even larger sail ( a 9 or 9.5 m2 for more subplaning power in low winds or even for planing, until I heard about the Aerotech Windsup sail and I read positive reviews in this thread and elsewhere.

What surprises me is that the Aerotech Windsup sail's maximum size is only 5.6 m2. How can it be good for these light winds, when a regular 5.6 m2 sail won't even move my windsup by 1 inch, in this kind of winds? How does it compare to an 8.0 m2 in the same light winds?
Is it worthwhile to consider it in this kind of winds or it is just little more than paddling?
Please note that planing is not my 1st priority, given the conditions here, but if I could at least subplane more efficiently and a bit faster, it would make my day.

Thanks

Ittiandro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9153

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When something appears to be too good to be true, beware of being foolishly taken in and wasting your time and money.

Reflecting back a bit, how is that old cambered Gaastra sail, where you modified some of the battens, working out for you?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
When something appears to be too good to be true, beware of being foolishly taken in and wasting your time and money.

Reflecting back a bit, how is that old cambered Gaastra sail, where you modified some of the battens, working out for you?


Regarding the Gaastra 5.6 , I discarded it some time ago because the sail was a bit tattered , the monofilament was cracking and peeling off, etc.. This is why I used it as guinea pig for my.. wild experimentations..

From what I recall though, it gained some power after shortening the central battens to about 6-8 ď from the mast.
This way I was able to give it less downhaul ( tighter leech) in light winds and still have it rotate well.

I am not that sophisticated ,technologically ,to assess how much ( and perhaps how badly) this affected other parameters in the sail( balance, position of the center of effort, etc).

I can only tell that it gained power, certainly enough power to subplane in light winds ( under 15 knts), which was not the wind range the sail was designed. In fact il was labeled as a Race Sail . Most likely, as such, it was designed for stronger winds above 15 knts..
I had even tried in light winds before the modification : it never got me going. The board was just as good as not having a sail on it!

Actually the idea of keeping the battens a few inches away from the mast is not that new or.. ďlunaticĒ . HSM did the same on their Maui UL ( 8.0 m2) which I have.

Reverting to the Aerotech sail issue, which is the main reason of my post, I donít understand what you mean by saying
Quote When something appears to be too good to be true, beware of being foolishly taken in and wasting your time and money.UNQUOTE

If you mean it as a general caveat, I couldnít agree more. On the other hand if you refer to the Aerotech sails on my windsup and you think it is a waste of time and money, Iíd like to know the reasons behind your skepticism..
I am a bit skeptic, too, but then I never had one and I am no expert.

Brinhkaufman in this thread seems to rate it very positively, though, even the smaller Aerotech 4.8Ö

Maybe you can be more specific..It would help me

Thanks

Ittiandro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9153

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, let me say that I have no experience with the Aerotech 4.8, but unless the sail is purposely mis-identified and measures out much larger in area, it isn't going to offer much more power than other sail brands in that size range. It certainly isn't going to generate the kind of power you would find with your HSM 8.0, or even the old NP Garda 6.2.

While your existing sails may not be designed for getting the most out of the low end, there are sails on the market that will offer more power in light winds. One feature that I would look for is a longer than normal boom length. It's my understanding that sails specifically designed for longboards would be more in line with what you might need. Also, a camber or two benefits you greatly by maintaining a large pocket in the power zone above and below the boom, and a stable cambered foil greatly improves windward performance in all conditions. Lastly, a sail design that has a tighter than normal leech will definitely work to your benefit (I believe that your old NP Garda has an adjustable leech tightening string feature just above the clew).

In closing, I would say that going larger and larger in sail sizing comes with a number of downsides. No doubt, waterstarting and uphauling sails over 8.5 can be quite a chore, and they can be heavy to handle, particularly going to and from the launch site. One needs to be more athletic to get the most out of what they offer. Then there's the high cost of good masts and booms. Going with low carbon content masts and aluminum booms really isn't the way to go with jumbo sails, and you'll suffer for it if you go the cheap route.

Lastly, big sails requires big fins, particularly when looking for low end power in light winds. You have to ask yourself how big a fin will the Bic Windsup comfortably handle. I'm thinking not much bigger than 50cm, and that's arguably a bit small for a 9.0 or larger sail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is entertaining... or frustrating, LOL... depending on free time to read posts. Here we go again...
ittiandro - "why on earth would this post interest you"? Because yesterday you said -
< Brinhkaufman in this thread seems to rate it very positively, though, even the smaller Aerotech 4.8Ö >

You don't know him. You don't have any idea what he means by this... what his perspective is, etc. You don't know if he has the same goals as you do. You don't know how your sailing skills and experience compare, or what wind speeds you're both sailing in. Flat water or ocean sail, etc.
He is making a very general comment. You can not take anything specific from his statement, and apply it to any of your details.

I think you've already learned about different sail designs, right?

Anyway, if you have a question about something very specific, that someone posts here... I would suggest you ask them directly with a personal message. Because none of us know everything about him or you... therefore we can not interrupt the mystical meaning of this, and how it would apply to you. None of us know each other... or everything about our sailing experience or skills or goals or sailing weather conditions. So we can not guess what these general statements mean.

I know about this particular sail... and if you have a specific question, I am happy to answer it.
Thanks Smile

_________________
Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
This is entertaining... or frustrating, LOL... depending on free time to read posts. Here we go again...
ittiandro - "why on earth would this post interest you"? Because yesterday you said -
< Brinhkaufman in this thread seems to rate it very positively, though, even the smaller Aerotech 4.8Ö >

You don't know him. You don't have any idea what he means by this... what his perspective is, etc. You don't know if he has the same goals as you do. You don't know how your sailing skills and experience compare, or what wind speeds you're both sailing in. Flat water or ocean sail, etc.
He is making a very general comment. You can not take anything specific from his statement, and apply it to any of your details.

I think you've already learned about different sail designs, right?

Anyway, if you have a question about something very specific, that someone posts here... I would suggest you ask them directly with a personal message. Because none of us know everything about him or you... therefore we can not interrupt the mystical meaning of this, and how it would apply to you. None of us know each other... or everything about our sailing experience or skills or goals or sailing weather conditions. So we can not guess what these general statements mean.

I know about this particular sail... and if you have a specific question, I am happy to answer it.
Thanks Smile


Thanks for your comments

I agree that I donít know the member who rated the Aerotech positively, just as I am aware that most, if not all the Forum members donít know each other, including me, but then this is the very nature of a Forum.

Posting in a Forum is a bit like ..shooting in the dark or..going fishing, in the hope to find answers to our questions.

Still, the answers we receive can be deeply relevant and informative even if we donít know the windsurfing history and preferences of the person who gives them, provided the questions (and the answers!) are clearly defined. Ö

I donít see , then, why you say that I should have P.M. directly that member, implying perhaps that my question was not of sufficient general interest to be posted publicly in the Forum.

I think that NOBODY has the right and the authority ( except moderators, on fundamental policy issues) ) to scrutinize membersí questions based on their own, subjective perception of what is or should be of public interest within the purview of a Windsurfing Forum and that of the thread.

I should stress that in mentioning a Forum member who rated the Aerotech positively I did neither intend to side with his opinion nor refute those who disagree, whether it was you or somebody else..

The reason why I posted is that I was the first to be skeptical about the claim made by some ( not necessarily the member in question) that the Aerotech sail , because of its vertical battens, can achieve a much fuller shape than regular sails and therefore pack more power than expected from its small size.

Being no expert, I raised the question in the Forum to see what others thought.

The feedback I receive from another member is that the Aerotech sail will never have the same power of an 8 m2 sail. Should I perhaps apply your rationale and question his view, because I don't know him and his background?!
I think not : his view stands to reason also because, upon reflection, Windsup sails are more likely to be designed for leisurely low-speed subplaning at a beginnerís level than for speed and planing.


Having said this, Iíll take you up on your offer to tell me more about this sail

Take care

Ittiandro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apologies for the "attitude"... it was late, I was tired... somewhat mis-spoke.
Please disregard. And, sorry, again.

And yes, I can tell you more about the Aerotech Windsup, it's a great sail for it's many intended uses. But I'm busy right now with family and work... so will touch bases back here in a couple days Smile
Thanks -

_________________
Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíll put the Aerotech question on the back burner for now. This option was (and still is ) one of a few others I am considering to improve the subplaning performance of my Windsup.

One of them would be changing board, but I wouldnít go for a regular shortboard, because even the best light-wind shortboards are sluggish in sub-planing and in light winds it takes a lot of work to get them planing.( pumping)

I was thinking instead of longboard-type board like a 2nd hand Kona One. I believe it is a better performer ( and light-winds performer) than the Bic Windsup, both for subplaning and planing. If not a Kona One, it would have to be 350 cm long or more, reasonably stable, probably no less than 70 cm.


Until I find a good deal ( there are not too many around here) I was wondering whether in the meantime a larger fin would help on the Bic Windsup..

I have already replaced its original Dolphin fin with a regular windsurfing fin (a weed fin) and it is a lot better. It is around 35 cm long, but a bit back swept, though, which may reduce its effectiveness (lift).

May be a longer, more vertical fin would help, but I hear some caveats regarding putting too long a fin on a Bic Windsup , because their fin boxes( U.S. Box) are designed for SUPing and may not be strong enough to take the stress of a longer finÖ..How long can I go on a fin for the Windsup, considering that I'd be mostly subplaning in light winds ?

Another point I want to raise is to what extent the nominal narrow width of a board is an indicator, per se, of its stability.

I have sailed a 65 cm wide Mistral, and I didnít feel comfortable at all. Very tippy.
The Kona One is about 70 cm, not much of a difference, but I was wondering if the stability of the board is also determined by other parameters.
I remember my first board in the early-mid 90ís, a true longboard (like they all were in those days) . I canít remember the brand, other than it was made in Sweden. Heavy as hell, much narrower than the 80 cm Bic and yet very stable.. Could its design,shape and the volume distribution have had anything to do with its stability?

In other words, if we have two boards of the same width, length and volume, for instance, would they offer the same felt stability if the designer had distributed the volume differently along the hull in each of them?


I wonder if anybody has comments

Thanks

Ittiandro
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 6 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group