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4.0 or 4.8 Aerotech WindSUP?
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ittiandro

Last edited by ittiandro on Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll put the Aerotech question on the back burner for now. This option was (and still is ) one of a few others I am considering to improve the subplaning performance of my Windsup.

One of them would be changing board, but I wouldn’t go for a regular shortboard, because even the best light-wind shortboards are sluggish in sub-planing and in light winds it takes a lot of work to get them planing.( pumping)

I was thinking instead of longboard-type board like a 2nd hand Kona One. I believe it is a better performer ( and light-winds performer) than the Bic Windsup, both for subplaning and planing. If not a Kona One, it would have to be 350 cm long or more, reasonably stable, probably no less than 70 cm.


Until I find a good deal ( there are not too many around here) I was wondering whether in the meantime a larger fin would help on the Bic Windsup..

I have already replaced its original Dolphin fin with a regular windsurfing fin (a weed fin) and it is a lot better. It is around 35 cm long, but a bit back swept, though, which may reduce its effectiveness (lift).

May be a longer, more vertical fin would help, but I hear some caveats regarding putting too long a fin on a Bic Windsup , because their fin boxes( U.S. Box) are designed for SUPing and may not be strong enough to take the stress of a longer fin…..How long can I go on a fin for the Windsup, considering that I'd be mostly subplaning in light winds ?

Another point I want to raise is to what extent the nominal narrow width of a board is an indicator, per se, of its stability.

I have sailed a 65 cm wide Mistral, and I didn’t feel comfortable at all. Very tippy.
The Kona One is about 70 cm, not much of a difference, but I was wondering if the stability of the board is also determined by other parameters.
I remember my first board in the early-mid 90’s, a true longboard (like they all were in those days) . I can’t remember the brand, other than it was made in Sweden. Heavy as hell, much narrower than the 80 cm Bic and yet very stable.. Could its design,shape and the volume distribution have had anything to do with its stability?

In other words, if we have two boards of the same width, length and volume, for instance, would they offer the same felt stability if the designer had distributed the volume differently along the hull in each of them?


I wonder if anybody has comments

Thanks

Ittiandro
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2326

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Swedish board you refer to was probably a polyethelene heavy Surf Partner AIR, of around 180 litres in volume. (Surf Partner claimed over 200 litres - but it wasn't.)

I used one on the racing circuit when the wind was nearer planing strength. It was fast then and had very good upwind ability, even when only semi planing. It had a plastic centreboard but thick and surprisingly efficient rails, which put on a par with better all round boards. It lost out to the more volumous boards in sub planing glide. (I used the bigger race board in lighter winds.)

As with all poly boards I've ever used over any length of time, the foam beneath the flexible poly skin gradually compressed beneath the footstrps ( and delaminated) slowly but surely compromising the boards shape, and rocker. (A Surf Partner poly short board I bought compressed beneath the footstraps so badly that the tail end warped into NEGATIVE rocker. It became lethal to blast!)

As to tippiness of narrower longboards, it goes with the territory and the skill to use them properly must be acquired through practice. There is no short cut to gaining such skills. Narrowness and length is the recognised way to gain sub planing glide. Shorter wider boards WON'T cut it! The rewards of mastering that tippiness are well worth it. The Kona is an established good allround performing board, including when planing fast.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 826

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embrace the narrow, get comfortable with the uncomfortable, remember this is a sport where you get wet.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 775
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Embrace the narrow, get comfortable with the uncomfortable, remember this is a sport where you get wet.


Haha, yes very true Smile

ittiandro - I've just gone back to re-read your posts on page 6 & 7. And it seems you're a detail oriented, thorough guy. But you raise so many different questions in each post (along with some inaccuracies).
Anyway I imagine you'd like thorough answers and explanations for the concepts you raise... but each one would take a paragraph or two. It becomes very confusing and answers take multiple pages for "so many different questions per post" which take too much time.

One theme you mention a couple times in the last 2 pages, is, you want more performance from your Bic 11'6" 215L windsup in subplaning conditions. Is that correct?
It's very helpful that you included your weight and typical wind speeds and that you're sailing on a lake.
But "performance" means different things to different people.
Can you define what exactly you want?
Thanks -

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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 775
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Examples for "wanting more performance in subplaning wind, from my longboard (because your Bic 11'6" 215L windsup is a longboard) might be -
I want to go faster beam reaching, back and forth across my lake.
I want to point upwind higher than I can now.
I want to tack and jibe tighter... turn around faster.
I want to do more low wind freestyle.
I want to be able to lean back and hang my weight off my boom.
These are just options... you probably have other specific things you want.

Next. I may have incorrectly thought, you are a newer windsurfer. Because I read that you said your first board was in the mid 90's. So can you give us an idea of your skill level and your experience?
Thanks -

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 775
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Next - You say that 40% of your typical wind is 15 knots, and the rest of the time it's usually less than that.
So you have much more wind there, than I do here. I appreciate that you want more subplaning performance (?) when you're out sailing. And we can work on that.
But regarding all the 15 knot wind you get, that's awesome!
I weigh 15+ lbs more than you... but in "that wind" I would be planning all the time on a 11'6" 215L windsup.
You say that you have a 8m sail. Won't that get you (187 lbs) planing in 15 knot wind?
Are you using your harness fully? In that wind (whitecapping) you should be hanging about all your weight, from the boom... your feet should be very light. Does your windsup have footstraps, because some do. You could be in the straps on that board, with a 8m and 15 knot wind.
I don't want to go off on another topic "planning performance". Let's stick with what you want. I'm just trying to understand better.
Thanks -

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Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
Examples for "wanting more performance in subplaning wind, from my longboard (because your Bic 11'6" 215L windsup is a longboard) might be -
I want to go faster beam reaching, back and forth across my lake.
I want to point upwind higher than I can now.
I want to tack and jibe tighter... turn around faster.
I want to do more low wind freestyle.
I want to be able to lean back and hang my weight off my boom.
These are just options... you probably have other specific things you want.

Next. I may have incorrectly thought, you are a newer windsurfer. Because I read that you said your first board was in the mid 90's. So can you give us an idea of your skill level and your experience?
Thanks -

Greg
Thanks for your help.
Regarding the " I want.. '' list above, I am a minimalist and I'd say that my first and only priority is a bit more subplaning speed.

Regarding the points you raised in your posts , they all seem aimed at establising my real skill level.

I'll try to address them all more specifically in what follows.

When I started windsurfing in the early 90’s, long before the emerging of the shortboards with the planing craze in their wake, I never had any problem in sailing: after learning the basics of steering, tacking and gibing I’d just hop on the longboard, sail away and find my way back..: the sail had no batten, the harness and the footstraps were still outside my horizon, there was no..carve gibe, no.. helitack, no pumping, no worry about the thickness of the rails, the rocker, or other esoteric stuff, yet sail I did..
So, from this angle, I must have gone well past the beginner stage.

I then quit windsurfing for a while for family reasons, after the birth of my son.

When I came back to windsurfing after a few years, full of hope , on my brand new, feather-light ( and expensive!) planing shortboards, I discovered that I was like …crippled : the board(s) would ..stick to the water like …glued on it, in the same winds where before I used to sail happily, albeit slowly..

I bought a few shortboards, including the Bic Core 293( my last shortboard) and the much acclaimed Taboo Rocket and I sailed on them ( or at least I tried to) for a few years.

I sold them all after a while because I was going nowhere and I bought the Bic Windsup, which has been like a ..rebirth.

So, to answer your question, by today’s conventional standards I am more of a beginner ( no foot straps, no harness until recently, no water-start , a lot of good, solid uphauling and an utter inability to keep balance on a 65 cm wide, toothpick -like board, like the sleek Mistral Comp I once tried, YET give me the same longboard on which I used to sail 25 years ago and I am perfectly at ease.

Incidentally, what puzzles me is that my old longboard was only slightly wider than the Mistral Comp, perhaps 70 cm and yet it felt almost as stable under my feet as the 80 cm wide Bic I am sailing on today.
Perhaps because of the volume and weight of the board?

Or perhaps it is because I put some weight on ( at 85 kg I am 20 kg above what I was in my 20’s ) and I have grown older( much older!) , even though I am in top physical shape, I train regularly at the gym, both for cardio endurance and muscle toning ( although I abhor body building).

So am I a beginner or an intermediate sailor? In a sense I am both!.

Perhaps I am a beginner only shortboard-wise but not “ longboard-wise?!

Kind of weird answer, perhaps, but to say that I am a beginner without these qualifiers makes as much sense as saying that a seasoned automobile driver is a beginner( or even a bad driver) simply because he/she cannot race a car at 300 km/hr like a Formula 1 pilot or a well-trained policeman in the pursuit of a criminal or engage in car acrobatics like a professional stuntman…

Regarding the harness, I started using it only two years ago, but most of the time, in the winds I am sailing here, I don’t need it. Even when winds pick up, for the relatively short distances and time on the water I can do just as well without one, just by sheer arms’ strength. Often I reach the point where committing to the harness is not even necessary, because there is not enough wind pulling on the sail, even an 8.0 m2


This should give an idea of where I am at

Take care

Ittiandro
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, it keeps duplicating the posts. Canceled

Last edited by ittiandro on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 826

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on that response you are a beginner. Intermediate starts with comfortable blasting in the straps, non-planing gybes, tacks (on boards you can uphaul) and waterstarts.

#1 thing I see holding people back (other than TOW) is failing to use the harness. Second is not rigging big enough (this relates to #1).
If you can "muscle through" the gusts for several hours then the wind is either averaging a lot lower than the numbers you've indicated (nothing wrong with that) or you're built like an ox.

Regarding the harness: on a longboard you should be using the harness 90% of the time unless the wind is consistently under 5mph or so. Adjustable lines is an important part of this.
Otherwise you are putting too much energy into controlling the sail and none into actually driving the board.
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