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4.0 or 4.8 Aerotech WindSUP?
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Based on that response you are a beginner. Intermediate starts with comfortable blasting in the straps, non-planing gybes, tacks (on boards you can uphaul) and waterstarts.

#1 thing I see holding people back (other than TOW) is failing to use the harness. Second is not rigging big enough (this relates to #1).
If you can "muscle through" the gusts for several hours then the wind is either averaging a lot lower than the numbers you've indicated (nothing wrong with that) or you're built like an ox.

Regarding the harness: on a longboard you should be using the harness 90% of the time unless the wind is consistently under 5mph or so. Adjustable lines is an important part of this.
Otherwise you are putting too much energy into controlling the sail and none into actually driving the board.

I am what I am, probably a beginner. Labels don't always depict reality accurately, though.

You still have to consider the qualifiers I introduced: short-boarding beginner vs longboarding : they are two different worlds, in more than one respect..

I remember quite well what it felt like to be a real beginner when I first started windsurfing on my longboard and how hard it was at times learning how to keep balance, to steer, o tack and gibe .....

This learning curve is way behind me now ( no matter the labeling, beginner or else..) and provided the winds are there, I can sail the shortboard and make it back., precisely because I can tack and gibe ...So am I really a beginner in an absolute sense, just because I donít use the foot straps or the harness? Perhaps, but I won't keep quibbling on this point, because, beginner or not, I have a lot to learn, as everybody has, no matter his/her level....

Regarding the necessity of using the harness all the time on a longboard, except when winds are consistently under 5 knts/hr, in order, as you say, not to spend too many energies in controlling the sail, I can see your point when the wind really begins to pick up and you have to counterbalance it by committing to the harness, but this is not a situation I encounter very frequently : if I commit to the harness when the winds are only 10 knts , my weight , 85 kg, may well pull more strongly on the sail than the wind does in the opposite direction, which defies the purpose of the harness.

When winds are so low, it doesn't take much energy to control the sail with the arms..

Regarding muscling through the gusts for a prolonged period of time without using the harness, I cannot really say that typically I have to muscle very much, precisely because the winds are mostly light and this is why I usually don't need to use the harness.

About rigging not big enough, if by this you mean using sails that not large enough for light winds, this could be part of the problem and this is why I was considering rigging a 9 or a 9.5 on my WindSup to get more power and speed, instead of the 8.0 which is the largest I have for light winds .

But even trimmed for light winds, my HSM 8.0 doesn't seem to yield much more power and speed than the other smaller sail I have ( a N.P. Garda 6.2. )

But here, too, as happens when discussing windsurfing, opinions are divided: some say that a larger sail would help to get more power. Some, on the other end say that it won't help, because no matter what sail you put on the Bic WindSup, the board is primarily designed for SUP'ping and this severely limits the subplaning speed it can reach with a sail..

Just a few passing thoughts..

Thanks for your comments

Ittiandro
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 551

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are talking about the difference between say wave sailing or freestyle and competitive raceboard there really isn't a difference between shortboard and longboard skills. Especially not when you are using a wide, inefficient board.

More power isn't going to increase the hull speed of your board. If it can plane perhaps you will plane sooner, but you aren't going to get more subplaning speed.

In very light winds the type of sail can matter more than size. Sails without cams need a certain amount of wind to make power, which is why raceboards use cammed sails. Does your HSM have cams?

I use an 8.5 for cruising on my raceboard. Anything but the lightest wind I'm using the harness to rail the board, that's how you go fast when you aren't planing.
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dyz36



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
the windsup sails are meant for non-planing conditions.

you may wish to switch to a 5.2 charge for that much wind.

http://www.aerotechsails.com/charge.html


I agree. I bought one of those windsup sails new and now it is sitting unused. I went back to my 15+ year old wave sail with a broken batten and stuff peeling off. The windsup sail works in light conditions and can save me a few minutes in rigging time. That said, it quickly loses its shape if once you are overpowered. The first time I took it out it was gusty and I thought the sail was defective because I could not sheet in right. Then, I made it work when it was light and I thought I figured it out. Then, another gusty day and I gave it up for good for sup wave riding. Where I sail on Lake Michigan waves are wind driven so there are very few light wind days with waves when the windsup sail could conceivably work for wave riding.

The old wave sail I went back to is designed with shorter battens (not reaching the mast) which makes it more responsive and gives me a nice power push to get going on a wave. When it disintegrates I will look for something similar.

The vertical batten design works in some situations but, for me, its disadvantage outweighs the few minutes I save on rigging/derigging.

I agree with some posters that wave riding on a sup is a lot of fun. Much easier than surfing and as much fun as planing for me. My only complaint is that there is a lot crappy construction windsup boards out there. My board developed symmetrical cracks which the sales guy from my local shop (they still exist) incorrectly blamed on mast hits. No big deal for me, I can fix then with epoxy - just a note for those interested in windsup wave riding.
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Unless you are talking about the difference between say wave sailing or freestyle and competitive raceboard there really isn't a difference between shortboard and longboard skills. Especially not when you are using a wide, inefficient board.

More power isn't going to increase the hull speed of your board. If it can plane perhaps you will plane sooner, but you aren't going to get more subplaning speed.

In very light winds the type of sail can matter more than size. Sails without cams need a certain amount of wind to make power, which is why raceboards use cammed sails. Does your HSM have cams?

I use an 8.5 for cruising on my raceboard. Anything but the lightest wind I'm using the harness to rail the board, that's how you go fast when you aren't planing.


THere may be no difference between longboarding and shortboarding skills, regarding the basics: posture, steering, tacking and gibing, but there is a diifference in getting it moving in light winds.. If some people do it, it is because they do have a technique : the shortboarding technique. It must be something special, because I can always sail on my longboard without having it, whatever it is ( pumping, footwirk? God knows)

Regarding more speed with a larger sail, I meant that a larger sail may allow the board to reach its max hull speed ALLOWED by its length and design , not in absolute terms.

Ittiandro
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 747
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding "skill level labels" - They aren't clearly defined at all... ask 10 guys and you'll get 10 different "skill level categories". Personally, I don't "like" to use these labels... but sometimes, I do anyway. However it's MUCH better to find out exactly what skills a sailor can do... their fitness level... the wind speeds they typically sail in... the boards and sails they usually use... and yes, the various skills they're comfortable with, and the skills they're not comfy with. And that's why most people here ask and answer those types of questions... because it helps fellow windsurfers who don't know each other, to chat more accurately.

Next, there are many different disciplines in windsurfing... and I think "you can be" an expert in one segment and a beginner in another. At least, this was my experience, or how I felt, as I learned and continue learning this sport.
I learned in a light wind area, always under 12-15 knots, usually it's from 2 - 9 knots. Therefore everyone sailed big longboards. You started with small sails... as your skills grew, you could graduate to bigger sails. Then you learned to use a harness so you could sail longer with a jumbo sail for a longer time. Then I practiced and learned lots of different light wind tacks and jibes. Then I got into local light wind racing... and because I'd learned very good light wind board and sail handling skills, I did well. People would say that I was an advanced windsurfer.

HOWEVER when I went to the Gorge and it was blowing 25... I was a complete beginner again. I could not sail a shortboard at all. But my light wind longboard experience helped me advance a bit quicker than some in high wind shortboarding.

Of course lightwind and highwind windsurfing are related. But they are also like 2 different aspects of the same sport... and you can be very good at one of them and not very good at the other. I know expert high wind sailors who have borrowed a good longboard and gone out sailing. It was VERY interesting... because they struggled quite a bit.

Wave sailing is another separate but related discipline. And I've never even tried that, so I'm a novice wave sailor, even though I've been windsurfing for 37 years.

Windfoiling is the newest windsurf discipline... again it is related to all other types of windsurfing... but there are separate skills as well. And all the famous pros who are amazing all-round windsurfers... are windfoil beginners for quite a while, until they gather new skills.

Our sport is different than many... because you need certain wind and water conditions, in order to learn many of the skills. If you're in a light wind area, typical wind always under 12 knots... then, it doesn't matter how much you practice, or lessons you take, or how athletic you are, or how much money you spend... because you will never learn high wind sailing skills. Same with waves... gotta have em... or you'll always be a novice wave-sailor (although you could be an expert flat water sailor).

And that's why I think, it's "less helpful" to put undefined labels on us all. It's "much more helpful" to accurately describe your skills and your environment.

My 2 cents Smile

_________________
Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:
Regarding "skill level labels" - They aren't clearly defined at all... ask 10 guys and you'll get 10 different "skill level categories". Personally, I don't "like" to use these labels... but sometimes, I do anyway. However it's MUCH better to find out exactly what skills a sailor can do... their fitness level... the wind speeds they typically sail in... the boards and sails they usually use... and yes, the various skills they're comfortable with, and the skills they're not comfy with. And that's why most people here ask and answer those types of questions... because it helps fellow windsurfers who don't know each other, to chat more accurately.

Next, there are many different disciplines in windsurfing... and I think "you can be" an expert in one segment and a beginner in another. At least, this was my experience, or how I felt, as I learned and continue learning this sport.
I learned in a light wind area, always under 12-15 knots, usually it's from 2 - 9 knots. Therefore everyone sailed big longboards. You started with small sails... as your skills grew, you could graduate to bigger sails. Then you learned to use a harness so you could sail longer with a jumbo sail for a longer time. Then I practiced and learned lots of different light wind tacks and jibes. Then I got into local light wind racing... and because I'd learned very good light wind board and sail handling skills, I did well. People would say that I was an advanced windsurfer.

HOWEVER when I went to the Gorge and it was blowing 25... I was a complete beginner again. I could not sail a shortboard at all. But my light wind longboard experience helped me advance a bit quicker than some in high wind shortboarding.

Of course lightwind and highwind windsurfing are related. But they are also like 2 different aspects of the same sport... and you can be very good at one of them and not very good at the other. I know expert high wind sailors who have borrowed a good longboard and gone out sailing. It was VERY interesting... because they struggled quite a bit.

Wave sailing is another separate but related discipline. And I've never even tried that, so I'm a novice wave sailor, even though I've been windsurfing for 37 years.

Windfoiling is the newest windsurf discipline... again it is related to all other types of windsurfing... but there are separate skills as well. And all the famous pros who are amazing all-round windsurfers... are windfoil beginners for quite a while, until they gather new skills.

Our sport is different than many... because you need certain wind and water conditions, in order to learn many of the skills. If you're in a light wind area, typical wind always under 12 knots... then, it doesn't matter how much you practice, or lessons you take, or how athletic you are, or how much money you spend... because you will never learn high wind sailing skills. Same with waves... gotta have em... or you'll always be a novice wave-sailor (although you could be an expert flat water sailor).

And that's why I think, it's "less helpful" to put undefined labels on us all. It's "much more helpful" to accurately describe your skills and your environment.

My 2 cents Smile


I see your point. Well taken. The only thing I am not too sure, yet, is about the meaning of subplaning HULL SPEED. Does it have a ceiling, related to the board's design, particularly the length and the width, (all the other things being equal) ?
I read that a short and wide shortboard has a max. subplaning hull speed that is lower than that of a long and a narrower board and this is why such a board ( like a Formula boards) requires pumping in order to reach the planing threshold in light winds.

Ittiandro
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9113

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you really need to think about is a board's bottom shape, particularly focused on its rockerline. It's not just length and width. There are different ways to overcome a board's bow wake
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 551

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waterline length to width, plus to some degree bottom contour, determines hull speed. The longer board with least surface in contact with the water will have the highest hull speed. This is why catamarans are very fast compared to other non-planing sailboats.
Basically drag increases significantly as you approach hull speed, but if you can exceed it then drag goes back down because you are just touching the water with the planing section of the hull. Also because of the speed the sail has more apparent wind, which is why you can plane in less wind than it takes to get going.
So yes a formula board has a lot of drag to overcome, and that drag happens at a low enough speed that you don't have much apparent wind in the sail, so you have to really work to get it going.

A raceboard on the other hand will kind of slide it's way on and off plane, but it also has a fair amount of drag (and weight) when planing due to the centerboard so it won't keep planing through lulls like a formula.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 551

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raceboard specific technique stuff:

A huge factor in getting fast subplaning speeds (specifically up wind) with a raceboard is known as "railing". You apply downward pressure through the harness with the centerboard down (and mast base forward). This allows the board to roll to leeward which actually reduces the width (because you are on the rail) and increases waterline length a little (because the nose rocker is pushed into the water by the forward mast base).
You also get some lift from the tilted centerboard which further reduces drag.

None of which is possible with a wide board having a weak centerboard and non-adjustable mast track.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2191

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Greg and Grantmac about the need to develop specific longboard skills, especially in sub planing mode, to get the best performance from them. In some respects racing longboards with centreboards are more difficult to master properly than ordinary short planing boards, a fact that those who have been brought through on short wide 'easy' learner boards may not appreciate.

What is the point of wanting to keep using longboards, apart from the obvious one of competing in the racing class? Twofold in my opinion. 1) It provides a challenge to get the best out of them, especially in iffy on/off planing and sub planing modes. which keeps us in touch with our earlier learning (on those kinds of boards) days, when we first experienced that 'magic' thrill of windsurfing. 2) In on/off planing conditions, or just non planing winds, those long narrow racing boards with centreboards have the ability to take you anywhere in a wide variety of wind and sea conditions and back again, regardless of wind direction.

In that respect, those old, and now newer developments of them, are unique and an extra foil in our armoury giving us greater scope than relying solely on higher wind planing shortboards only. Some of us don't subscribe to the 'if it aint windy enough just talk a good day' philosophy!
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