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Torture and Ethics
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Do I support waterboarding? Yes"


Twisting words? No, just noting what you said. There is no question about whether waterboarding is torture, despite your comments otherwise.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Torture: "reading through any of bajaDean's posts"
There, did it, end of conversation.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beaglebuddy wrote:
Where I draw the line is doing this to our own citizens vs some muslim we captured (citizen or not)

Even if that citizen left and renounced the U.S., converted to Islam, and joined the jihad as an enemy combatant?
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It never ceases to amaze me that you supposed protectors of liberty ignore the Constitution when you simply want to be cruel.
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KGB-NP



Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure the "left coast" believes these types deserve to be treated with the utmost respect, or maybe not? Imagine this taking place in SF.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/03/05/dnt-damon-isis-gay-executions.cnn
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beaglebuddy



Joined: 10 Feb 2012
Posts: 1120

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
beaglebuddy wrote:
Where I draw the line is doing this to our own citizens vs some muslim we captured (citizen or not)

Even if that citizen left and renounced the U.S., converted to Islam, and joined the jihad as an enemy combatant?

I'm fine with torturing someone like that Very Happy
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True conservatives have some idea about the Fifth Amendment:
Quote:

Fifth Amendment: Due Process

The government may not deprive citizens of “life, liberty, or property” without due process of law. This means that the government has to follow rules and established procedures in everything it does. It cannot, for example, skip parts of trials, or deny citizens their rights as protected by the Bill of Rights and by law. This protection helps to ensure justice.
Due process protection has its roots in the Magna Carta when King John promised that “[n]o free man shall be taken or imprisoned … or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.”
The language of this amendment is echoed in the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause.


Neo-conservatives seem to exempt those they disagree with from their Constitutional rights.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the key word here is "citizens". I don't think there were or are any US citizens behind bars in Gitmo.
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uwindsurf



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 968
Location: Classified

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

The 5th Amendment uses the word "person", not citizen. The US Supreme Court has ruled that Gitmo detainees were entitled to due process under the 5th Amendment.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now there's a vision of American values sure to inspire other countries to emulate us. We honor the Fifth Amendment, but only when it is convenient. When it is not we look for loopholes, and then suspend it for the suspicious and non-citizens--no matter what the Supreme Court says.

You guys aren't really conservatives at all.
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