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Is strong downhaul always recomended?
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chandler ... I don't dispute what you and Techno find since both of you clearly know what's what, but I admit to being a little baffled.

Last year I checked out three different makes of 430 C 45 masts (Tushingham-Gun- Pryde) in the advised manner, by hanging a heavy weight (some building bricks which I've not got round to using yet -knew they'd come in handy one day Laughing ) off them, and measuring the bends and deflections.

The Tush and the Gun were identical, and the Pryde was a wee bit bendier up top, so clearly two were built to the same spec. (Same Italian factory I think.) So I wouldn't be surprised if many other makes were the same.

I've not measured an RDM, but I'm told they are different, so the point remains (to me), that if the sail is equally at home on either, as claimed, it really shouldn't be mast critical.

The sail in question, by the way, is a 5.0 Tushingham Rock wave sail, which replaces my old one of the same size and name. The main rigging difference I find is that it is harder to get the same degree of twist up top, without more effort on the downhaul. But once set, it handles just as the old.

P.S. Got splitting headache and early to bed. Brilliant wind forecast for New years day, and that sail it will be!!! Laughing Laughing
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmf wrote:
However if conditions change I will often come ashore and change downhaul settings to reflect the new parameters on the water. This method works very well with Bruce's designs, maybe other sails don't have this ability......or others are not willing to tune their rig to suit the conditions.

It depends a lot on the sail. Some sails have a huge range without any adjustments; others need minor outhaul changes; and some work best when adjusting both outhaul and downhaul. There are also sails simply have a more limited wind range, even when adjusting both downhaul and outhaul.

Maybe all Sailworks sails behave in a similar way, but that's not true for other brands. In my Gaastra's, the Matrix is "set and forget", with a huge range; the Pilot requires more outhaul if the wind comes up; and the Manics require both outhaul and downhaul. In our North sails, the Ice also requires very little adjustment, while Idols want to be tweaked a lot.

It's definitely worth playing around a bit to see what happens. Keep in mind that some sails start behaving badly with too much downhaul and/or outhaul, not just with too little. Even better if you can compare notes with other sailors who use exactly the same sails.
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mikeg83



Joined: 23 Aug 2014
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I have a question, and it may just muddy the entire discussion, but what would you do if you did not have access to a rigging guide for a particular sail?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this (credits to techno900). Pick your most applicable sail design, and don't worry a whole lot about whether its your sail brand. So much is universal in how things work.


http://www.sailworks.com/rigging-instructions


After giving things a try over time, I'd like to hear what you think.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeg83 wrote:
what would you do if you did not have access to a rigging guide for a particular sail?

I'd use a modern mast of the right length,
downhaul it until the top panel showed some slack about halfway back towards the mast and there was a LITTLE bit of slack at the trailing edge of the third panel,
pinch the clew between my thumb and index finger and pull just hard enough take the slack out of the sail,
set the boom one inch longer and outhaul to the boom,
make sure that third panel still shows a bit of slack at its outer edge (if it doesn't, add more DH), and
recheck the outhaul looking for that inch of tension.
To double check everything I'd lay the sail on the ground,
place one palm on the middle of each of the two battens immediately above and below the boom,
press down until the sail resists,
and look for the belly of the sail to move down maybe halfway from the port/starboard midline to the far side of the boom.
If it goes nearly to the boom, add more OH ; if it goes less than halfway, slack off the OH.

Go sailing, pay attention to every performance detail from rotation to stability in gusts to any top-heavy or dead feeling, and experiment. You're after a sail that feels lively for its size, that does not lift you up off your feet, that rotates around the mast by itself with no jerk or kick required, and that pulls from the same low spot between your harness line attachment points in both lulls and gusts.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3549

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll assume an RAF sail, camber is a whole separate issue.

Down haul until the battens just above & below the boom are laying in the middle of the mast then pretty much as Iso does. If after down hauling until the battens are laying on the mast the leach is super tight or super floppy you have a mast incompatibility issue and will never get it right.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTOH, some sails such as my Northwaves don't care about battens-to-mast overlap as long as they rotate cleanly. I neither know or care where my battens lie relative to the masts. My Hurricanes, though, were tuned almost exclusively by a thumb against the batten at the (correct) mast.

There are just so MANY valid criteria among different brands and models that it's worth a lot of effort in finding the manual and/or experimentation to make a sail work as intended. And it's all for naught if some incompatible mast is being used ... much more common >10 years ago.

All one more reason to pay a little bit more if it gets equipment new enough to get the right rigging instructions with them or from a knowledgeable owner or website. Any old triangle, stick, and oval are NOT likely to give a newby and the sport a fair chance at compatibility. (Would anyone over 20 date someone ONLY because s/he had the right body parts?) If a person getting into WSing can't afford better gear than random, old, dusty, unknown rigs, he needs to pick a cheaper sport*. If ya wanna WS on a budget, the place to pinch pennies with vice grips is on the board, not the rig. There are too many good rigs on the used market to pay a grand for the whole rig, but a $100 rig is not only useless but an almost sure path to disappointment and the trash bin with the whole sport. A $100 board and fin, though, can be a delight.

* No, that does NOT mean kiting. Old crappy kiting gear can maim or kill. Crappy WSing gear merely pisses you off.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another general comment: I think it's perfectly fine if folks get on this forum and SAY that they only use one downhaul setting. Where I have a problem is when folks get on this forum and ADVISE people to use only one downhaul setting. Every well written manual states that one will get maximum performance out of their sails by doing so.

It's particularly troublesome when good sailors give the 'one downhaul setting' advice, because they are in a position to be believable. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't be much better if they tuned their sails.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
It's particularly troublesome when good sailors give the 'one downhaul setting' advice, because they are in a position to be believable. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't be much better if they tuned their sails.

I agree. A local expert who sails the Gorge year 'round always tuned his sails the same way regardless of conditions and was openly and vocally dissatisfied. In the interest of protecting his product's image, I informed the highly regarded sail designer, who promptly contacted the sailor and encouraged him (in a much more polite and informative way) to ... well ... RTFM Smile , including DH and OH settings. Next time I talked to him he was much happier with his sails.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody has yet mentioned apparent rig and board mismatches.

My old 4.2 North Zeta worked a treat on the wave board, yet was a nightmare when tried on the bigger Screamer. Yet a different 4.1 sail I used at the time worked quite well on the bigger board. (I was learning to jump - something the Screamer was quite handy at!)

I notice there can still be slight apparent mis-matches with some boards, and some rigs. My 5.3 North Ice sail, properly set and tweaked, and tweaked again, never truly felt comfortable on my Exocet Cross 94, (a different 5.5 sail certainly does), yet the Ice works just fine (a favourite) on the Exo Cross 84.

It's surprising how small apparent niggles in handling irritate the hell out of you, when you just know the board is better than that!
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