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johnl

Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject:

manuel wrote:

I agree with you, it's best to consider a waterstart as a "we climb on the board" thing (it helps making sure we are centered over it, same exact thing as a beach start). In extremely light wind (i.e. winds barely strong enough to lift the sail up above our head, most people simply uphaul the sail at this stage), pulling ourselves up is unfortunately the only option to waterstart then. We must apply downforce straight down the mast, this is when we are happy to have a nice carbon boom with no head twist!

The only time I "pull myself up" is when the wind is super marginal (to me that means nobody else is waterstarting). Then I only do so once I have the sail completely vertical and I'm pulling myself up directly under the sail.

I prefer to refer to the waterstart as the "unrolling of a pill bug" with your arms completely straight and over your head the entire time. Another instructor, a female, always makes a big deal out of "thrusting the hips forward" during the waterstart. I'm not sure if this is a female vs male kind of thing due to different body mechanics.

manuel

Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:59 pm Post subject:

I removed all parts where I agreed.

isobars wrote:

IF IT REALLY MAKES IT EASIER, I’M ALL FOR IT. BUT I DON’T SWIM MY GEAR INTO POSITION; THAT’S WORK. I JUST ROTATE MY LEGS AND TORSO IN A BIG HORIZONTAL CIRCLE AND THE GEAR ROTATES THE OPPOSITE WAY.

I think that's what I mean by the waterstart swimming technique.
I'm not sure people can understand it without seeing it and since it's done under water... it's hard to see!

isobars wrote:

I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU GET THE MAST VERTICAL WHILE GRASPING THE BOOM UNLESS YOUR WATERSTART IS DONE.

By underpowered, I meant marginal winds (5-10 knots on wave gear). I mentioned that it was easier to do on a smaller board because the tail will sink lower and the step isn't as big. The only way to get the mast truly vertical is by holding the sail foot and the mast, since I have monkey arms I can get that sail pretty darn close to vertical while burying my board.

isobars wrote:

I’D JUST GRAB THE BOARD AND FLIP IT IF IT WAS INVERTED, WHICH I ALMOST NEVER ENCOUNTER. MAYBE THAT’S PRIMARILY A BREAKING SURF OCCURRENCE OR A BIG BOARD PROBLEM

This happens a lot here regardless of volume, maybe more so on smaller boards. The nice thing is that smaller boards are easier to flip with the feet as they sink. Flipping by hand means letting go of the boom, which means the clew might start sticking under water. The shortest amount of time we take to waterstart the more likely we are to escape long swims or broken gear.

On a side note, in marginal winds, it's difficult to flip a board with the feet because the board will prevent to raise the mast high enough to catch enough wind.

isobars wrote:

THAT ESCAPES ME TOTALLY. I ALWAYS WATERSTART POINTED BELOW A BEAM REACH, MAYBE PLANING BEFORE I EVEN GET TO MY FEET.

A SAIL THAT HAS THE POWER TO LIFT US OUT OF THE WATER HAS PLENTY OF POWER TO CATAPULT US. THAT’S SOMETHING I TRY ONLY ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR, WHEN I HAVE NO BUSINESS OUT THERE AND AM DESPERATE TO GET MY BUTT TO SHORE. MAYBE I SHOULD TRY IT MORE OFTEN JUST TO CONSERVE ENERGY.

By overpowered, I meant hardly sailable. For example, with mitts in the winter, trying to waterstart might be enough to fry one's forearms and not be able to hold on anymore.

As the sail is raised upwind, catapults should not be a concern. I have never had to do this here in hundreds of sessions. I have only had to do it a couple of times in my life sailing crazy Wyoming winds. It was the only way to get up without having my gear ripped out of my hands.

isobars wrote:

- Take off and fly upwind (only option pretty much until the wind becomes more manageable)

I GOTTA GET PLANNG FIRST, WHICH I DON’T KNOW HOW TO INITIATE WHILE POINTING UPWIND.

When way overpowered, planing is nearly instant as everything gets lifted out of the water. There's so much force that upwind is the only possible way to move forward.

isobars wrote:

THE MORE OP’D I AM, THE MORE I WANT AT LEAST MY CATAPULT-PROOFER -- MY BACK FOOT -- IN ITS STRAP.

That's possible on small gear, on big gear the straps being farther back, such as on Formula boards, it's difficult. The chicken strap should be reachable though. Here I use the rear strap so that the white water behind me doesn't steal my board from under my feet Smile

isobars wrote:

- Hold the mast between the tip and the boom with both hands

I HOLD THE BOOM. I ALMOST NEVER TOUCH MY MAST EXCEPT DURING RIGGING. WHAT AM I MISSING?

When swimming the sail to get the mast across the wind.

isobars wrote:

- Swim with legs together like the "man from Atlantis" parallel to the mast

AGAIN, UNLESS I’M CHASING ESCAPED GEAR OR HEADING TO SHORE IN NO WIND, I ALMOST NEVER SWIM.

It's just like what you described earlier as "ROTATE MY LEGS AND TORSO IN A BIG HORIZONTAL CIRCLE."

isobars wrote:

[...]how about “Isn’t all swimming horizontal?” Very Happy

The front leg thrusting to get out of the water in marginal winds is vertical. Any swimming to help fly the rig higher, this type of vertical swimming is what is hazardous when doing it over shallow reef.

Ok now the OP can write a book with what we've got!
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coachg

Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:48 am Post subject:

johnl wrote:

The only time I "pull myself up" is when the wind is super marginal (to me that means nobody else is waterstarting).

John,
I'll bet that your front arm pushes forward to keep the board from rounding up and your back hand feathers in and out for power until your weight is fully over your back foot. At this point the board is already moving so your arms slightly leverage the mast down as you stand up. Most of the work is done by your legs. It is just a matter of terminology but I would say you really are not pulling yourself up in marginal winds.

Coachg

manuel

Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:18 am Post subject:

coachg wrote:

johnl wrote:

The only time I "pull myself up" is when the wind is super marginal (to me that means nobody else is waterstarting).

I pull myself up to get my butt over the board then I use my legs. By sinking a smaller board makes it so that I don't have to go as high to get over the board and therefore can waterstart with less wind.

Both arms are straight, there's no momentum to milk any power out of the sail. It's fully powered (with whatever little wind there is) headed downwind the front one is pushing down as hard as possible kind of using the mast as a cane. Once up I need to be exactly over the board with my front foot forward of the mast, bobbling up and down in near zero winds.
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techno900

Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:53 am Post subject:

I hope there are no water start beginners reading this, as they will most certainly be overwhelmed with needless detail above. I have made a few clew first water starts, but somewhat by accident, probably in the middle of a failed gybe before flipping the sail. Board turned but still holding on to the boom as before the turn. Just keep the sail into the wind and up you go. Probably on a broad reach, but a beam reach can work too.

johnl

Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:29 am Post subject:

coachg wrote:

johnl wrote:

The only time I "pull myself up" is when the wind is super marginal (to me that means nobody else is waterstarting).

I know in those marginal winds everything happens real slow. I also feel it in my abs a lot more. But the "pulling up" only happens at the very end. I put all effort into getting the sail up and the mast vertical. This comes at the expense of my body which I keep low until the end. But I agree up to the end with your analogy.

nw30

Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject:

adywind wrote:

Anyone doing clew first waterstarts? I started working on that during my last winter session-I like trying new stuff. You need to face directly downwind with board and sail to be able to controll it.

If you are a wave sailor, a clew first water start is a lot more than just something else to do, it's a very valuable tool, a must to have.
You go down on the inside of the waves, and you have very little time to get going again before the next wave crashes over you, and you find that your equipment is in a clew first water start position. The next wave is getting closer, and you don't have time to flip the sail, no problem, just water start the way it is, and get the hell out of there.

And no, you don't have to have the board pointing directly down wind to do it.

winfreak

Joined: 26 Apr 2001
Posts: 61
Location: Oregon Coast

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all your responses. This is the OP here and I would welcome any more responses (hopefully from some who have not posted yet!) to the original questions relating to water start preferences, especially water starting in the straps in windy/rough conditions. .

johnl

Joined: 05 Jun 1994
Posts: 1330
Location: Hood River OR

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject:

winfreak wrote:

Thanks for all your responses.

This is the OP here and I would welcome any more responses
(hopefully from some who have not posted yet!)
to the original questions relating to water start preferences, especially water starting in the straps in windy/rough conditions.

.

Never responded to the poll...

Always a single (back) foot on the board in all conditions with very few exceptions (both feet). Never in the straps unless I am finishing a trick and my feet are still in the straps and I want to "complete the trick". Sometimes clew first if the gear sets up right and I'm 4.2 or bigger (and 80 liter or bigger board).

The speed I come up will be determined by how powered I am. So barely powered and my front foot comes up real slow. Very powered and it is on the board instantly (but still start with one foot).

I can only think of a handful of times I came up with both feet.

Observation.. It amazes me watching medium skilled sailors doing 2 foot starts. They will be out in the launch just bobbing and dragging. I come out with more body weight and a smaller sail and get up immediately. You will never convince me that a two foot start is efficient...

merriam2

Joined: 25 Oct 2013
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject:

winfreak wrote:

Same as Johnl. Almost always back foot only, not in strap, all conditions.

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